Brewing Master

Question:

If you keep the sugar out, I think you’ll be making the first step from "pretty good homebrew" to "Hell, this is better than the stuff I buy!" Dr. Pivo

Here, Here!! Cheers! Steve Garrett

Response:

I disagree with your first assertion as to what cidery is- cidery is it tastes like cider, a thin sweet apple like taste, not tasteless as you say. Also as to your assumption of what kit we’re talking(when u talked about your first kit beer) about as I said in my earlier post we don’t know what kind of kit we’re talking about since the original poster merely stated that it was not a Mr. Beer. I derived from this that it was something like a Mr. Beer but not exactly. I.E. much smaller batch, maybe a total of 3 gallons As far as tasting a difference in "a small amount of fermentables" off flavors can be tasted in as little as five PPM and do make a difference. I agree with your statement about yeast that is now commercially available and  overstated on that point since I myself just finished a 2 year old Barleywine that finished out at 13% alcohol(the upper limits of what yeast can survive). But both your Imperial stout and my Barley wine had considerable malt profiles to circumvent many off flavors. By the way I still use a blow off tube In closing I believe this NG to be a place of sharing ideas to make better brew and better brewers, I do not believe the use of 2Lbs of sugar in a brew is advisable for anything smaller than 5 gallons unless your trying to get that "cidery taste due to a recipe that calls for it like a wine cooler or a Malt beverage. Peace. PS I really like your signature and am a living example – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

The main issue, the "cidery" flavor is baiscally that the beer is thin and tasteless. That is what cidery is. The "off" flavor is that it _does not_ have the normal sweetness associated with unfermentable higher malt sugars and the body from malt proteins. The reason many kits call for the additional sugar is that they are intended for people who are trying to make an alcoholic drink to save money on the highly taxed beverages, and not trying to make a superior beer. This is one of the basic problems I have with some kits.     A four gallon (16 liter) kit with 1 can of  3.3 lb (1.5 Kg) of LME would have an OG of around 1.033. If I added 1 lb of cane sugar and extended the water 1 gallon (Just like I did on my second kit!), I’d have 5 gallons of 1.035 wort. This would probally end at around 1.007. This would be a thin beer since A) it was thin to begin with and B) used a very fermentable wort. It would be about 4% alcohol, however.     As far a priming, 3/4 cup of sugar is adding a minimal amount of fermentables to a beer. I don’t believe anyone will be able to taste the difference between 3/4 cup of corn sugar, 3/4 sucrose, or 1 1/4 cups DME. As far as the alcohol level reaching a point where it is killing the yeast, I don’t think so. Most of the modern yeasts, including the common dry yeasts, are quite attenutive and can handle barley wines (Upwards from 8% alcohol) quite fine. I recently used Wyeast 1056 to ferment an Imperial Stout with a OG of 1.101. It finished at 1.024. This is 10% I think the attenuation stories are from the older, not updated homebrew books, which also show things like use a 3/8 plastic tube for blow off. Contrary to what I read here, I believe most homebrewers  who have been brewing for a while would agree that A. the use of common table sugars WILL contribute to off flavors and B. the use of too much sugar I.E. 50% of any kind will raise the alcohol content to a point as to PREVENT proper attenuation. If I’m not mistaken the original poster said they used a kit (not a Mr Brewer) untill you know the total volume of said kit, you can’t say that 2Lbs of sugar isn’t much. IMHO 2Lbs of sugar in a 5 Gallon batch is about the most I would go and that would be with corn sugar(not beet sugar or more commonly know as table sugar) It is likely that the total volume of this batch is much less that 5 gallons, in which case 2 Lbs is 2 much.

– James Tomlinson Give a man a beer, and he wastes an hour. But teach a man how to brew, and he wastes a lifetime! Moody Waters Brewery

Response:

Don Marsh asked: I’m curious.  I brewed my first batch about 2 weeks ago, and i’m almost ready to bottle it.   I bought a kit (not Mr B), and it called for something like 2lbs of sugar (i’m a real newbie).  Now i’m reading from people not to use sugar.  My question is: will my beer suck because i used sugar?  It seems to me that replacing sugar with 1.5x DME would greatly change the taste (i would imagine for the better).  What can i expect from my beer, and what differences can i expect from my next batch when i use DME instead of beer? Also, what would be a good DME replacement for sugar?  My next brew is going to be an amber ale.

I’m a definate proponent of the "keep the sugar out of beer" argument. I find it recognizable and offensive. I think you’re on the right track with the DME replacement. Another way of doing it, and what I usually suggest for people starting out, who don’t have a bunch of other stuff (like DME ) lying around, is to just cut back the volume, and leave out the sugar. I think these are the numbers, if I can rattle my brain cells a bit. Sugar is worth about 360 gravity "points" per kilo per litre (Perhaps somebody has these numbers in US(eless) measurements?).  If the recipe calls for 2 lbs of sugar, you’re almost at a kilo (we’ll say for simplicity) about 350 points.  Most beer hangs at an O.G. of around 50, which means  (350/50) you’re adding about 7 litres of "sugar beer" to what otherwise might have been a good beer.  If you elliminate the 7 litres and the sugar, it means that you are making about 3 and a quarter gallons of good beer, rather than five of sugar watered stuff. It may seem like a waste, but I think you’ll find it’s worth it, and you might look at your next kit to see exactly how much malt extract they are selling you…. The box that’s a bit cheaper but advertises "Makes Five Gallons of BEER!!", but really only gives you ingredience for 3 and a quarter, may be a whole lot more expensive. As to the taste of the one you made?  No I don’t think it will "suck". I think one can be pretty proud of most things when starting out, and rightfully so.  If you keep the sugar out, I think you’ll be making the first step from "pretty good homebrew" to "Hell, this is better than the stuff I buy!" Dr. Pivo

Response:

Contrary to what I read here, I believe most homebrewers  who have been brewing for a while would agree that A. the use of common table sugars WILL contribute to off flavors and B. the use of too much sugar I.E. 50% of any kind will raise the alcohol content to a point as to PREVENT proper attenuation. If I’m not mistaken the original poster said they used a kit (not a Mr Brewer) untill you know the total volume of said kit, you can’t say that 2Lbs of sugar isn’t much. IMHO 2Lbs of sugar in a 5 Gallon batch is about the most I would go and that would be with corn sugar(not beet sugar or more commonly know as table sugar) It is likely that the total volume of this batch is much less that 5 gallons, in which case 2 Lbs is 2 much.

Response:

No your beer won’t suck (or if it does it’s not because of the sugar).  Sugar adds alcohol, without adding any flavor.  As the percentage of (adjunct) sugar to malt increases the chance of a sweet or cidery flavor increases due to the fact that you won’t get 100% attenuation.  Brewers will say "Don’t use any sugar.", for a couple of reasons.  One is that when they were first starting out brewing they probably used sugar and got a cidery beer (because they didn’t use enough yeast, or fermented too warm, or whatever) but they blamed the sugar.  Another is that all malt brews are more full bodied and flavorful, which is what most homebrewers are looking for.  There are some potentially bad fermentation byproducts that can result from too much sugar, but those won’t usually be detectable ( in a properly brewed beer) until you’re using a very high percentage of adjunct sugar. ( 50%).  So the bottom line is Don’t worry, have a homebrew, and make your own decisions about using sugar. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – don’t use sugar during brewing, use light dried malt extract, 1.5 times more than the amount of sugar requested. I’m curious.  I brewed my first batch about 2 weeks ago, and i’m almost ready to bottle it.   I bought a kit (not Mr B), and it called for something like 2lbs of sugar (i’m a real newbie).  Now i’m reading from people not to use sugar.  My question is: will my beer suck because i used sugar?  It seems to me that replacing sugar with 1.5x DME would greatly change the taste (i would imagine for the better).  What can i expect from my beer, and what differences can i expect from my next batch when i use DME instead of beer? Also, what would be a good DME replacement for sugar?  My next brew is going to be an amber ale. Thanks, Don Marsh

Response:

Your current batch will be a bit thinner-bodied than an all malt beer since the corn sugar will not add any unfermentable sugars or any proteins, etc. Corn sugar is about 100% fermentable, so won’t leave anything behind in a sense.  Some people say it will leave a cidery flavor, but I never really tasted a strong cider flavor in my early batches that included corn sugar. YMMV.

Boy, i’m really going to sound stupid after this one.  I believe the sugar i used was regular (table) sugar.  The same kind you would put in your coffee or on your cereal.  I’ve never really heard of or had the need to used corn sugar until i started reading up on homebrewing. An all malt batch will be heavier-bodied, shouldn’t have any cidery off-flavors, and will be maltier and more like real beer.

Well, i guess i’m not going to hold very high expectations for this beer (my first).  I smelled it the other day and it smelled *REAL* high in alcohol.  Does that tame down a bit during the bottling wait? Thanks everyone who has responded…this NG is great, and people are very eager to help out beginners. Don Marsh —         "Giddi-yup!" — Kramer

Response:

While I agree that corn sugar (glucose/ a monosaccharide) is better for priming, Table Sugar (sucrose/ a disaccharide) will work also.  Sucrose is 100% fermentable, and the byproducts of the fructose fermentation (1 of the two molocules making up sucrose) will not be detectable at that low of a level.  I’ve used table sugar, when I’m out of corn sugar, with no ill effects. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Again, if you’re going to use sugar for conditioning (bottling) use CORN sugar, not table sugar.

Response:

What Mike said. I don’t speak Mr. Beer-ese.

It’s not like ebonics.   Give me a chance, I’m still learning brewing terminology.

Response:

Yes! I’m growing a dozen pie pumpkins (as opposed to Jack-o-lantern punkins) for this very reason. Can’t wait!

A local brewery here in NYC (Park Slope Brewing Co.) makes a pretty good Pumpkin Ale.  I’ve been searching for a few good recipies that I can try a test batch or two.  I’ll have to use canned pumpkin for the tests but I’ll use the real stuff for the main batch. Pie pumpkins are good.  I used a large pumpkin to make some pies 2 yrs ago and it didn’t come out as good as I wanted, but last year I used a couple of pie pumpkins and they came out great.  The larger pumpkins tend to be tough.

Response:

Ideally, let it ferment until the bubble rate is 1 per minute,

I think you meant bubble rate is < 1 /minute. Omar Caballero – Aurora, IL "Live long and prosper" – Mr. Spock … and have another Homebrew!

Response:

Again, if you’re going to use sugar for conditioning (bottling) use CORN sugar, not table sugar.

Response:

don’t use sugar during brewing, use light dried malt extract, 1.5 times more than the amount of sugar requested.

I’m curious.  I brewed my first batch about 2 weeks ago, and i’m almost ready to bottle it.   I bought a kit (not Mr B), and it called for something like 2lbs of sugar (i’m a real newbie).  Now i’m reading from people not to use sugar.  My question is: will my beer suck because i used sugar?  It seems to me that replacing sugar with 1.5x DME would greatly change the taste (i would imagine for the better).  What can i expect from my beer, and what differences can i expect from my next batch when i use DME instead of beer? Also, what would be a good DME replacement for sugar?  My next brew is going to be an amber ale. Thanks, Don Marsh —         "Giddi-yup!" — Kramer

Response:

Your current batch will be a bit thinner-bodied than an all malt beer since the corn sugar will not add any unfermentable sugars or any proteins, etc. Corn sugar is about 100% fermentable, so won’t leave anything behind in a sense.  Some people say it will leave a cidery flavor, but I never really tasted a strong cider flavor in my early batches that included corn sugar. YMMV. An all malt batch will be heavier-bodied, shouldn’t have any cidery off-flavors, and will be maltier and more like real beer. As for what to replace the sugar with, I think a good approach is to use the lightest DME you can find, then get color and other malt tastes from specialty grains like crystal, chocolate, etc. — Mark Nelson Windhund Brauerei Atlanta Georgia * Return e-mail spam-proofed – delete the obvious — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – don’t use sugar during brewing, use light dried malt extract, 1.5 times more than the amount of sugar requested. I’m curious.  I brewed my first batch about 2 weeks ago, and i’m almost ready to bottle it.   I bought a kit (not Mr B), and it called for something like 2lbs of sugar (i’m a real newbie).  Now i’m reading from people not to use sugar.  My question is: will my beer suck because i used sugar?  It seems to me that replacing sugar with 1.5x DME would greatly change the taste (i would imagine for the better).  What can i expect from my beer, and what differences can i expect from my next batch when i use DME instead of beer? Also, what would be a good DME replacement for sugar?  My next brew is going to be an amber ale. Thanks, Don Marsh — "Giddi-yup!" — Kramer

Response:

: I’m curious.  I brewed my first batch about 2 weeks ago, and i’m almost : ready to bottle it.   I bought a kit (not Mr B), and it called for : something like 2lbs of sugar (i’m a real newbie).  Now i’m reading from : people not to use sugar.  My question is: will my beer suck because i : used sugar?   No, it won’t necessarily "suck," it just might not be as good as it could have been.   : It seems to me that replacing sugar with 1.5x DME would : greatly change the taste (i would imagine for the better).  What can i : expect from my beer, and what differences can i expect from my next : batch when i use DME instead of beer? Using a lot of sugar will give you a thinner beer with less body, and a taste that many people describe as "cidery."  Replacing the sugar with malt extract gives a fuller body and a better malty "real beer" flavor. : Also, what would be a good DME replacement for sugar?  My next brew is : going to be an amber ale. I think it’s best to always use light DME.  Many recipes call for amber or dark DME to provide darker colors and flavors.  But the problem is that different malsters use different ingredients to color their extracts so you never know for sure exaclty what kinds of flavors you’ll get in there (crystal malts, chocolate malt, roasted barley, black malt, etc.) So, I suggest you always use light DME and then steep some crushed specialty grains such as chocolate malt, crystal malt, or whatever, to get the darker colors, body, sweetness, and flavors you desire.  You have more control that way. Have fun, Kevin.

Response:

This is so much fun!!!!  I can’t tell you all how much I am enjoying learning and BREWING my own beer! (I also don’t feel so dumb, cus just reading has answered alot of my questions!) I think I am almost ready to bottle, fermentation has stopped after 5 full days, I have the Mr Beer, 7.5 gal clear plastic container(kept it covered up) I do notice that the beer is "clearer" at the top. (have 5 gals, 5-4 clear, 3-2 a bit cloudy,  The Mr Beer has a spout at the bottom to bottle from, but I did buy a bottling bucket.  question: Do I wait a few more days to let it settle more, or go ahead and use the wand and let it pour into the bottling bucket.  how long can I leave it in the bottling bucket after having added the primer?  oh an I tasted a bit today…..I LIKE!

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What Mike said. I don’t speak Mr. Beer-ese.

Response:

If it’s starting to clear – let it. A few more days will only help. Patience is a virtue in this sport! Priming and bottling should be a continuous operation. Once you prime, bottle asap. If you wait to bottle after priming, the wee yeasties reactivate and get gassy, which can cause alot of foamy bottles. Cervesariis feliciter – Long life to the brewsters! Steve Holat – Head Bottler Underhaus Brewery Batavia, IL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think I am almost ready to bottle, fermentation has stopped after 5 full days, I have the Mr Beer, 7.5 gal clear plastic container(kept it covered up) I do notice that the beer is "clearer" at the top. (have 5 gals, 5-4 clear, 3-2 a bit cloudy,  The Mr Beer has a spout at the bottom to bottle from, but I did buy a bottling bucket.  question: Do I wait a few more days to let it settle more, or go ahead and use the wand and let it pour into the bottling bucket.  how long can I leave it in the bottling bucket after having added the primer?  oh an I tasted a bit today…..I LIKE!

Response:

<My plan is for a Pumpkin Ale in the fall Yes! I’m growing a dozen pie pumpkins (as opposed to Jack-o-lantern punkins) for this very reason. Can’t wait! Steve Holat – Head Gardener Underhaus Brewery Batavia, IL Feel my skills…DONKEY DONKEY DONKEY DONKEY. – Jimmy James

Response:

This is so much fun!!!!  I can’t tell you all how much I am enjoying learning and BREWING my own beer! (I also don’t feel so dumb, cus just reading has answered alot of my questions!) I think I am almost ready to bottle, fermentation has stopped after 5 full days, I have the Mr Beer, 7.5 gal clear plastic container(kept it covered up) I do notice that the beer is "clearer" at the top. (have 5 gals, 5-4 clear, 3-2 a bit cloudy,  The Mr Beer has a spout at the bottom to bottle from, but I did buy a bottling bucket.  question: Do I wait a few more days to let it settle more, or go ahead and use the wand and let it pour into the bottling bucket.  how long can I leave it in the bottling bucket after having added the primer?  oh an I tasted a bit today…..I LIKE!

I used a bottling bucket with a fruit ale I made with my Mr B.  It cut the sludge down a lot.  You do need the siphon hose that comes with most brew kits though.  It has a special tip that keeps the bottom above the sludge. As for when to bottle.  I wait the 7 days even if the fermentations appears to have stopped.  From what I’ve read, it can’t hurt.  Once I bottle I let it carbonate a room temp for 7 days then I throw a few bottles in the fridge to lager it.  Of course I do like to sample my brew so the bottles don’t stay in the fridge too long. I’ve stopped using table sugar after the first brew.  Go for the liquid malt extract (LME) or A dried malt extract (DME).  Finish up your Mr B supplies and buy good stuff from a homebrew supply shop. Plan on what you want to brew in advance and psych yourself up for a good beer blast.  My plan is for a Pumpkin Ale in the fall and a holiday ale for Xmas. If you haven’t picked up Papazian’s books, get them.  You’ll pick up some good ideas and habits. Have fun brewing

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