Brewing Master

Question:

Summary:  Is taste affected if a secondary fermentor is not used?  I’m particularly interested in stouts. I have a homebrew kit which contains a 7 gallon glass carboy for the primary fermentor, but it does not have a secondary fermentor.  I would like to know whether it is worth purchasing a secondary fermentor if I want to make quality stouts (I bottle, not keg).  From what I understand, the secondary fermentation helps remove sedement, but it slows the carbonation process.  Nowhere have I read the effects on taste. I appreciate any opinions.  Thanks! Matthew Arnold

Response:

I use a secondary fermentation on my all grain brews. However, I’ve used a single fermentation without a noticable flavor change.  There may possibly be a little less yeast flavor since the beer has fewer suspended solids.  However, I keg the beer and bottle directly from the keg.  In my case the secondary fermentation provides a great deal more clarity. If you are botteling your beer directly after fermentation you are adding sugar which will propagate more yeast.  In this case a second fermentation step will probably not provide any added advantages.

Response:

Summary:  Is taste affected if a secondary fermentor is not used?  I’m particularly interested in stouts. I have a homebrew kit which contains a 7 gallon glass carboy for the primary fermentor, but it does not have a secondary fermentor.  I would like to know whether it is worth purchasing a secondary fermentor if I want to make quality stouts (I bottle, not keg).  From what I understand, the secondary fermentation helps remove sedement, but it slows the carbonation process.  Nowhere have I read the effects on taste.

I don’t see how it could slow carbonation.   If your beer is on the sediment no more than 3 weeks, you should be fine as far as flavour goes — especially in a stout.  I got lazy on a recently brewed brown ale and didn’t bother putting it into a 2ndary.  It’s been there about 5 weeks now, but most of that was in the fridge so I’m not worried about exceeding the 3 week limit. Yeast is canabilistic.  Once it starts eating itself, it gives off flavours that aren’t welcome in most beers.  In wines and meads they can be desirable, but not in most beers (save perhaps some funky belgian ones). Keep it below 3 weeks, and you should be fine.  You’ll find, though, that using a carboy for a primary (which i myself do as well) gives you are pretty dirty carboy.  But they aren’t too difficult to clean. cheers, -Alan — Alan McKay                Nortel Technologies Norstar Team          amckay at nortel dot ca

Response:

Summary:  Is taste affected if a secondary fermentor is not used?  I’m particularly interested in stouts.

Summarily answered: It depends (see below): I have a homebrew kit which contains a 7 gallon glass carboy for the primary fermentor, but it does not have a secondary fermentor.  I would like to know whether it is worth purchasing a secondary fermentor if I want to make quality stouts (I bottle, not keg).

Jeez, a 7 gal glass primary?  In a kit?  That’s a new one.  How many pounds (kgs) of malt extract (I’m assuming from the *kit* reference) do you use for a stout? When I started out, I didn’t use a secondary and I made plenty of fine stouts that way.  British ales that ferment out quickly are also amenable to a *one-fermenter* solution.  Racking to a secondary minimizes long-term contact between your beer and any trub/yeast sludge from the vigorous phase of fermentation.  The idea is to remove the bottom gunk as soon as possible to avoid tainting the beer with fermentation waste.  If you want to brew lagers, you will almost certainly want to rack to a secondary for extended cold storage.   From what I understand, the secondary fermentation helps remove sedement, but it slows the carbonation process.  Nowhere have I read the effects on taste.

If you have a lengthy *conditioning* period (after fermentation has virtually ceased) in the secondary, then you may have extended bottle conditioning time to develop carbonation because so many yeast have settled out of solution and gone dormant.  I bulk condition my beers for several months and have never had a batch that has failed to carbonate in the bottle.  Some brewers who worry about it, charge their beer with fresh yeast several days before bottling to hasten the process. Depending on with what you use to prime your bottles, carbonation time can also vary.  Again, I regularly use DME for ales and stouts, as opposed to corn sugar, because I am trying to create a certain bead characteristic in the final product. DME typically takes longer to produce carbonation than does corn sugar.  If I want a gassy, coarse carbonation, like in a light lager, then I usually use corn sugar.  After a long bulk conditioning using a DME for priming, it has sometimes taken 8-10 weeks for my beer to carbonate properly.  My personal approach to brewing, is to leave the beer as undisturbed as possible, so I don’t use fining agents, filtration or induced carbonation.  I just use time and patience. One-fermenter beers can taste great, two stage fermenter can taste great. Both can also taste awful.  I have never had my one-fermenter beers develop rubbery flavors due to yeast autolysing — which is a risk during an extended conditioning in a single vessel without removing sediment.  The other positive effect that racking has on flavor is to avoid harsh, bitter flavors from the kraeusen scum falling back into the beer and settling to the bottom.  Can’t say that I’ve ever had that in my beers either.  On the negative side, the more you handle your beer the more likely it is that you will introduce bacteria or oxygen which can cause off-flavors or ruin your beer. I appreciate any opinions.  Thanks! Matthew Arnold

You’re welcome — hope this helps. — Brian Bushido Brewing Co. "A nerd is a human being without enough Africa in him or her." -B. Eno Remove *spambites* from address when replying

Response:

The main reasons I use a secondary are two-fold: 1) To remove the beer from the primary yeast and trub, thus preventing yeast-bite from the yeast autolyzing (sp?). 2) For beers I want to age for a little while, esp. altbiers or lagers. With most of my beers I use a secondary, especially for reason #1. Others I only use a primary (most notably, my American Pale Ale). In short: a secondary is by no means necessary for a stout, but if you plan on leaving it in a carboy for a while (two weeks or more), it would be good to get a secondary to avoid those yeast autolysis flavors.

Well said. Just wanted to toss in a couple coppers on the autolysis thing. In my opinion, this is WAY oversold in the literature. Yeah it’s a possibility, but the chance of yeast autolyzing is very very have never noticed any funk that could be traced to autolysis. There is a lot in this hobby I feel is oversold. Things that might happen, could happen, but never do. Between drinking all this great beer at a ph of 5+ and worrying so much it’s amazing more of us aren’t posting about ulcers, instead of tennis elbow. By the way, I think the cure for the elbow is to stay away from the Victoria’s Secret catalogue.   Just Brew it! JG — Careful with that mash Eugene

Response:

I have a homebrew kit which contains a 7 gallon glass carboy for the primary fermentor, but it does not have a secondary fermentor.  I would like to know whether it is worth purchasing a secondary fermentor if I want to make quality stouts (I bottle, not keg).  From what I understand, the secondary fermentation helps remove sedement,

That’s true. You rack off the sediment in the primary and let it settle again so you take less crud over into your bottling bucket. but it slows the carbonation process.

Debatable. It’s almost impossible (short of filtering) to remove all the yeast from the beer just by letting it settle out. Nowhere have I read the effects on taste.

Some argue that beer tastes better (nice vague statement!) if it has time to mature in one big container (carboy) instead of many smaller ones (bottles). It does give the various tastes (sweetness, bitterness, etc.) time to meld. The main reasons I use a secondary are two-fold: 1) To remove the beer from the primary yeast and trub, thus preventing yeast-bite from the yeast autolyzing (sp?). 2) For beers I want to age for a little while, esp. altbiers or lagers. With most of my beers I use a secondary, especially for reason #1. Others I only use a primary (most notably, my American Pale Ale). In short: a secondary is by no means necessary for a stout, but if you plan on leaving it in a carboy for a while (two weeks or more), it would be good to get a secondary to avoid those yeast autolysis flavors. Matthew Arnold

Nice name Later,   Matt

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