Brewing Master

Question:

Mark Fagin  wrote in article You must buy your grain in pretty large quantities, and you must not be including the cost of your time and overhead.

Dean Larson replied: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well, I buy only my base malt in bulk: domestic two row malt in 25 kg (55#) sacks can get you down to the 50-60 cents per pound range.  Everything else is bought by the pound (hops by the ounce).  Overhead?  Not sure what that would be other than the buck or two of propane I use per batch. Equipment? Amortize it over a hundred or two batches and it starts to look like zero. Or, if you like, there are any number of ways that I could argue that my equipment purchases have saved me enough money to have already paid for themselves. My time?  To give a monetary value to the time I spend brewing would be, to use your words, plain silly.  You seem to think I should be computing my "costs" as if I’m a commercial brewer.  I’m not.  I’m a homebrewer.  I don’t brew to make money, I brew as a hobby, I enjoy it, it’s fun.  As such the economic value of the time I put into it is essentially zero.  Good lord, if I considered my time brewing as a cost and "billed" myself at what my employer pays me, every 5 gallon batch would cost me over $100.  I’d have no choice but to stop brewing due to the severe economic hardship it would cause me and my family. Nope, I’ll stick to my original statement: I can brew "MegaSwill" (only tastier, 20% corn gives it more body and I actual use some finishing hops) at home at a "cost" of about half what I’d pay for it in the store. Skol, Dean

I was going to chime in on Mark’s comments, but Dean beat me to it (in a much more eloquent manner). I’ll just say, "Me, too.", instead. Darren

Response:

What if you are making a cream ale? or pre-pro pilsner? or Graf-style vienna? As I wrote earlier, if you’re going to make those styles, then by all means use those cheap adjuncts, but I also wrote that IN MY OPINION, they’re bland and flavorless, and unworthy of the effort of making them when storebought megaswill can be bought for just as cheap, if not cheaper. It makes no sense to ME, but as have numerous others have pointed out, they do it. Hey it’s a free country. But in the unlikely

I think you might want to try a CAP/pre-pro pilsner before you write it off as a tasteless and bland style.  They’re pretty robust beers, with a MUCH more aggressive hopping schedule than Bud et al.  I’ve tasted quite a few, and even judged them — it’s a whole different ball game.  The corn doesn’t make the beer "sickly-sweet," it tastes slightly corny a pleasant way (NOT in a DMS way), and gives the brew a light touch. event that I was ever in the mood for a sickly sweet overcarbonated alcoholic beverage, then I’d grab a Budmilloors, not make one. For a lot less effort, I could have a very tasty pale ale. Or one was trying to appeal to the MegaSwill crowd, one could make a tasty all-malt Kolsch, like I just did. It only has 20 IBU, and it has been very popular with the less adventurous.

I’m about to transfer my Kolsch into a cold chamber for a few weeks of lagering.  Can’t wait! You should not discount corn in brewing anymore then you should discount wild yeast or bacteria, they are absolutely required for some styles. Comparing the use of wild yeast and bacteria to the use of corn is plain silly. The overuse of corn was brought about in North America because the Megas were trying to make their beer cheaper and dumbed down. The use of the wild yeast and bacteria was done more for an artistic reason, for lack of a better term, than economic one.

Corn/rice use came about as a result of the qualities of barley in the US — the adjuncts were needed.  Thus pre-pro lager, which uses corn as a FLAVOR, rather than a sugar source.  And for "artistic," I might try "traditional" instead — I think it is closer to the mark.  It also brings in the use of corn — traditional in US breweries before prohibition, and before the dumbing-down period in American beer tastes. — Andrew Ager          Beer Geek, Beer Judge               Chicago, IL          Homebrewer Ordinaire                                  andrew-ager at nwu dot edu -Chicago Beer Society, 1998 Silver Medal Homebrew Club of the Year-      

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, in "Pale Ale" Terry Foster writes that British brewers often use flaked maize in amounts of 10-15% of the grist.  He definitely comes out against using sugars and other adjuncts, but with regard to flaked maize he (somewhat reluctantly) tells the reader to "Try it if you wish.".  He also states that the maize addition will improve the head retention of the brew a bit so using maize is perhaps marginally better than using sugar. You can just as easily use wheat or carapils for the same effect, and they won’t dumb down the beer. There is a rather amazing knee-jerk disapproval of adjuncts of any sort by some homebrewers.  It’s often quite irrational. I also think there is a large segment of homebrewers who boast of their use of corn, because others don’t. I recall an article (BT, I think) on Classic American Pilseners.  Short version:  Brewpub brewer gives a sample of new brew (CAP) to regular "beer-knowledgeable" customer. Customer raves about brew, asks what it is.  Brewer informs him it’s a CAP brewed with about 20% corn.  Customer informs brewer that he won’t drink that adjunct laden swill again (or words to that effect). Why are you bringingi in every single adjunct around? When I talk perjoratively about adjuncts, I talk strictly about rice and corn. I have nothing against the use of roasted barley, wheat, rye, candi sugar, etc., because if that is what the style calls for, fine. You can say that the style of ALL calls for corn/rice, and I say fine, but I also say the style sucks. Pale Ales do not need shitty adjuncts. It just isn’t necessary. As for your above scenario, it just doesn’t wash for me. If anyone put out a beer wit 20% corn, it would stick out like a sore thumb to me.

Yes, I do tend to group all adjuncts together.  I think it’s appropriate to do so.  Sure, different adjuncts can be used for different effect, but I think they all have one thing in common:  if used in appropriate amounts, they can be an integral part of a great beer; if used in inappropriate amounts, they’ll make lousy beer.  You seem to have a dislike of corn and rice, while giving other adjuncts such as Belgian candi sugar some kind of elevated status.  I’d hazard a guess that your opinion of corn/rice is garnered from the fact that the big boys use those.  Let’s not forget, though, that they use them in amounts like 30-40% of their grist.  Does that make lousy beer?  You bet it does!  What do you suppose you’d get if you brewed a "Belgian ale" with 30-40% candi sugar (don’t forget, it’s just crystallized table sugar, sometimes carmelized)?  My guess: lousy beer. And, if you believe the book you, yourself, referred to, then many British brewers of Pale Ale/Bitter do use additions of sugars or corn.  Does that not suggest that British Pale Ale/Bitter is another style where the addition of "shitty adjuncts" is called for or at least allowed? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The "great beers don’t contain adjuncts" argument just doesn’t wash; many of them do.  Off the top of my head, how about Fuller’s ESB?  How about all the great Belgian brews that contain significant amounts of candi sugar. Hey, that’s essentially table sugar.  That’s even worse than using corn or rice, right?  Bottom line:  Great beer can be made with adjuncts.  Lousy beer can be made with adjuncts.  Great beer can be made with 100% malt. Lousy beer can be made with 100% malt. See above on my comments about use of these kinds of adjuncts. Besides, I’ve never seen it definitively anywhere that Fuller’s ESB uses corn. It’s just been speculation. I’ll have to check my Michael Jackson book. By the way, you can count me as at least one brewer who can brew something pretty close to MegaSwill (for my few diehard friends and family who will only drink that type of brew) at a cost that is substantially cheaper than buying it.  It may be easier to buy MegaSwill, but it’s a lot less fun, and not necessarily cheaper. Skol, Dean You must buy your grain in pretty large quantities, and you must not be including the cost of your time and overhead.

Well, I buy only my base malt in bulk: domestic two row malt in 25 kg (55#) sacks can get you down to the 50-60 cents per pound range.  Everything else is bought by the pound (hops by the ounce).  Overhead?  Not sure what that would be other than the buck or two of propane I use per batch. Equipment? Amortize it over a hundred or two batches and it starts to look like zero. Or, if you like, there are any number of ways that I could argue that my equipment purchases have saved me enough money to have already paid for themselves. My time?  To give a monetary value to the time I spend brewing would be, to use your words, plain silly.  You seem to think I should be computing my "costs" as if I’m a commercial brewer.  I’m not.  I’m a homebrewer.  I don’t brew to make money, I brew as a hobby, I enjoy it, it’s fun.  As such the economic value of the time I put into it is essentially zero.  Good lord, if I considered my time brewing as a cost and "billed" myself at what my employer pays me, every 5 gallon batch would cost me over $100.  I’d have no choice but to stop brewing due to the severe economic hardship it would cause me and my family. Nope, I’ll stick to my original statement: I can brew "MegaSwill" (only tastier, 20% corn gives it more body and I actual use some finishing hops) at home at a "cost" of about half what I’d pay for it in the store. Skol, Dean

Response:

down their beer, not make great beer. And as you say, the 6 row available at the time wasn’t suitable for all malt beer, but now there is quality 2 row available, so they don’t NEED to use corn anymore. No HBer NEEDS to use corn nowadays. Any supposed benefits can be achieved in other ways.

What they h*ll are you smoking?  Do you know what you are talking about?  American 2-Row is still 2-3% higher in protein than continental malt.   Just try to make a chill-proof, all-malt beer with American 2-row without Irish Moss or filtration.  By the way, the German Purity Law prohibits the use of Irish Moss in the production of  beer; so, if you are using it your purity argument is B.S. Mark

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Hear hear.  You can add Guinness to that list – isn’t flaked barley an adjunct?  Homebrewers should use adjuncts because they add many desirable qualities to beer.  I’ve made good beers using various amounts of brown sugar, corn starch, flaked corn, oats, flaked barley, candi sugar, invert sugar, maltose, lactose, and honey.  I’ve tasted good (even great) beers made by others using the same.  I’m planning a buckwheat bock for Christmas, using flaked buckwheat and buckwheat honey. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The "great beers don’t contain adjuncts" argument just doesn’t wash; many of them do.  Off the top of my head, how about Fuller’s ESB?  How about all the great Belgian brews that contain significant amounts of candi sugar. Hey, that’s essentially table sugar.  That’s even worse than using corn or rice, right?  Bottom line:  Great beer can be made with adjuncts.  Lousy beer can be made with adjuncts.  Great beer can be made with 100% malt. Lousy beer can be made with 100% malt.

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If you look at the best beer in the world, corn just isn’t used. If you look at the shittiest beer in the world, there is an excellent likelihood that corn (or rice) is used.

Negra Modelo comes to mind as one excellent beer that uses corn. It is a Graf-style vienna and very tasty. I just don’t see why anyone would add corn to their homebrew, unless they’re trying to make American light lager, and if that’s the case, why bother? Just lay down $10 and get a case. It’s certainly cheaper, and easier to buy MegaSwill than to make it.

What if you are making a cream ale? or pre-pro pilsner? or Graf-style vienna? What if all you have access to is high protein barley and desire to make a stable beer? What if???? You should not discount corn in brewing anymore then you should discount wild yeast or bacteria, they are absolutely required for some styles. — John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady Boneyard Brewing                The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program

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I have to disagree here. The bittering hops DO matter, and different hops give different bittering. The extra oz or so of hops isn’t going to make any difference in the big scheme of things. I can say that galena hops, IMHO, lend a "catty" flavor to the beer. Stick with the EKGs or fuggles.

How many ozs of Galena are you using?   Galena is one of the most mellow high alpha hops on the market.

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If you look at the best beer in the world, corn just isn’t used. If you look at the shittiest beer in the world, there is an excellent likelihood that corn (or rice) is used.

I will put one of my adjunct beers up against one of your all malt beers anyday.  I am willing to bet that you cannot taste the difference between an all malt and a properly made adjunct beer. I just don’t see why anyone would add corn to their homebrew, unless they’re trying to make American light lager, and if that’s the case, why bother? Just lay down $10 and get a case. It’s certainly cheaper, and easier to buy MegaSwill than to make it.

You sound like you’re pretty wet behind the ears when it comes to beer and brewing science.  How long have you been brewing?  How many contests have you won?  What is your brewhouse technique? What does your quality control program encompass? When you compare a beer made with corn to Budweiser, you show that do not know what you are talking about.   Budweiser as well as most industrial brews are made with rice, not corn (usually a 60-70% malt/30-40% rice grist).   They are derivatives of a beer style known as Western Lager.   This style became predominant beer style in the U.S. during WWII because beer producers had to appeal to women drinkers (i.e., a lot of men were off at war). Before prohibition, there was a beer style made with a grist containing 80% malt and 20% corn.  It had an O.G. in the 50s  (instead of the 40s), and was more bitter than current-day industrial beer.   This beer was made by classically-trained, German brewmasters on the East Coast of the United States.   These guys knew what they were doing (after all, they were graduates of world-famous brewing schools).  They adapted their techniques to accomodate higher nitrogen barley.  A beer made with 100% American 2-Row or 6-Row is not as stable as a beer made with an 80/20 (malt/corn) grist.   An 80/20 beer is also more refreshing. In closing, before you go off making yourself look stupid to anyone who knows something about brewing science, take a minute to do a little homework.   It is clear to me that you know absolutely nothing about the subject. Mark

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Brewmasters, I was thinking of this scheme for hop additions (since I’ve already bought them all).  I have 4.5 oz. Kent Goldings and 1 oz. of Fuggles to play with. 2.5 oz. Kent Goldings (60 min) 1 oz. Kent Goldings (30 min) 1 oz. Fuggles (30 min) 1 oz. Kent Goldings (dry hopped or 2 min) What do you think? William

This is very close to my ESB hops schedule of:     1.25 oz – Fuggles – 60 min     1.25 oz – Kent Goldings – 60 min     0.25 oz – Fuggles – 15 min     0.25 oz – Kent Goldings – 15 min     0.50 oz – Fuggles – 0 min     0.50 oz – Kent Goldings – 0 min I have tried using EKG and Fuggles by themselves for the last two additions, but I prefer this combination. Personally I say try a couple of hop schedules on some small extract batches and then apply you favorite to the full batch. My malt bill is   95% Marris Otter Pale Ale Malt    5% 40L Caramel Malt Mash Schedule:   148degF – 45 minutes   152degF – 15 minutes   168degF – 10 minutes Boil is 90 minutes. Wyeast 1028 O.G. 1.045 F.G. 1.010 Brian

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Brewmasters, The reason I switched the fuggles and the Kent Goldings is because I read that Fuggles has a woody aroma, Which I tend to prefer. Also, I chose the 1968 yeast because it looked intriguing to me.  My hombrew shop reccomended it, and told me it was an excellent ESB yeast. I also added the Cara Pils to increase head retention (I like a lot of foam on my beer). As far as cloning Fuller’s ESB, that is not my goal.  I am trying to create something pretty distinctive, while at the same time trying to stay reasonably close to the AHA guidelines.  Ok, not too close…. Happy brewing, William — William E. Conway Vice President of Risk Management and Loss Prevention Delta Upsilon Fraternity, Georgia Tech Chapter http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt7266b "Beer is the most tangible proof that God loves us and wants us to be  happy" – Benjamin Franklin (paraphrased)

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Brewmasters, I was thinking of this scheme for hop additions (since I’ve already bought them all).  I have 4.5 oz. Kent Goldings and 1 oz. of Fuggles to play with. 2.5 oz. Kent Goldings (60 min) 1 oz. Kent Goldings (30 min) 1 oz. Fuggles (30 min) 1 oz. Kent Goldings (dry hopped or 2 min) What do you think? William — William E. Conway Vice President of Risk Management and Loss Prevention Delta Upsilon Fraternity, Georgia Tech Chapter http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt7266b "Beer is the most tangible proof that God loves us and wants us to be  happy" – Benjamin Franklin (paraphrased)

Response:

So NBA has corn in it? Yet another reason not to like this skunky bland ale.

Corn per se is not necessarily a sin!  IMO, the problem is the style of beer (i.e. American Light Lager) with which it is normally associated. I’ve tasted a "Classic" (pre-Prohibition) style American Pilsener, and it is certainly possible to brew a good tasting beer that uses corn as an adjunct.  If Fullers ESB also contains corn (as rumored), then that would be another data point that says corn is not inherently bad. —

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Let me tell you a dirty secret…it doesn’t matter what hop you use for the first addition in a full-flavored ale.  The boil pretty much blows off the flavor and aromatic components of a hop; so, go for one with some strength. I have to disagree here. The bittering hops DO matter, and different hops give different bittering. The extra oz or so of hops isn’t going to make any difference in the big scheme of things. I can say that galena hops, IMHO, lend a "catty" flavor to the beer. Stick with the EKGs or fuggles.

   Good advice.  I know from experience that hops like Chinook and Northern Brewer, when used solely for bittering, still contribute a distinctive flavor to a beer (Chinook a rough mega-grapefruity bitterness and N. Brewer what I call a "piney" character). — Joel Plutchak

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So NBA has corn in it? Yet another reason not to like this skunky bland ale.

it is my understanding the most english breweries use some sort of adjunct such as corn, etc. that is not necessarily a bad thing. i think most americans homebrewers have been brainwashed in thinking that using adjuncts is bad. jonathan icq# 8055952 Sugar Magnolia Brewery Brewing Better Beer. Feed Your Head. "We can have high times if you abide…" antispam in use: delete Friedspam to respond via email.

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it is my understanding the most english breweries use some sort of adjunct such as corn, etc. that is not necessarily a bad thing. i think most americans homebrewers have been brainwashed in thinking that using adjuncts is bad. jonathan icq# 8055952

If we have been brain washed, it’s because we grew up on Bud, Coors, and Miller. ‘nough said! Burp, -Dan

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I would tend to disagree – you still get some flavour from the bittering hops.  This is especially apparent if you’re brewing a style like a porter where little or no hop aroma & flavour is acceptable according to the BJCP – but just try to brew it!  Even with one addition at 60 minutes, I can taste the difference between my cascade porter and EKG porter. I go for a lower alpha, cleaner tasting hop for bittering any day.  Since I use whole hops, the more hops in the kettle, the better they filter trub. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let me tell you a dirty secret…it doesn’t matter what hop you use for the first addition in a full-flavored ale.  The boil pretty much blows off the flavor and aromatic components of a hop; so, go for one with some strength.   I suggest that you use 1oz of Galena instead of the Kent Goldings (EKG) for your first addition.  It is a clean hop that adds solid bitterness, and blends well with other varieties.   Save your EKG for flavor and aroma additions.   That way, you will have less hops to deal with at the end of the boil.   Remember, one of the most important things to you can do to improve your brew is to leave the break and hops in the kettle.  The resulting beer will be smoother than if you transferred the break and hops to the primary.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – . it is my understanding the most english breweries use some sort of adjunct such as corn, etc. that is not necessarily a bad thing. i think most americans homebrewers have been brainwashed in thinking that using adjuncts is bad. This is not how I understand it. Reading the Pale Ale book (from that Beer style series), the author (who is English) said that "some" brewers use corn, and he went on at great length to say why corn should NOT be used in pale ales or bitters. So evidently, it isn’t just American HBers who aren’t against the use of corn. If you look at the best beer in the world, corn just isn’t used. If you look at the shittiest beer in the world, there is an excellent likelihood that corn (or rice) is used. I just don’t see why anyone would add corn to their homebrew, unless they’re trying to make American light lager, and if that’s the case, why bother? Just lay down $10 and get a case. It’s certainly cheaper, and easier to buy MegaSwill than to make it.

Actually, in "Pale Ale" Terry Foster writes that British brewers often use flaked maize in amounts of 10-15% of the grist.  He definitely comes out against using sugars and other adjuncts, but with regard to flaked maize he (somewhat reluctantly) tells the reader to "Try it if you wish.".  He also states that the maize addition will improve the head retention of the brew a bit so using maize is perhaps marginally better than using sugar. There is a rather amazing knee-jerk disapproval of adjuncts of any sort by some homebrewers.  It’s often quite irrational.  I recall an article (BT, I think) on Classic American Pilseners.  Short version:  Brewpub brewer gives a sample of new brew (CAP) to regular "beer-knowledgeable" customer. Customer raves about brew, asks what it is.  Brewer informs him it’s a CAP brewed with about 20% corn.  Customer informs brewer that he won’t drink that adjunct laden swill again (or words to that effect). The "great beers don’t contain adjuncts" argument just doesn’t wash; many of them do.  Off the top of my head, how about Fuller’s ESB?  How about all the great Belgian brews that contain significant amounts of candi sugar. Hey, that’s essentially table sugar.  That’s even worse than using corn or rice, right?  Bottom line:  Great beer can be made with adjuncts.  Lousy beer can be made with adjuncts.  Great beer can be made with 100% malt. Lousy beer can be made with 100% malt. By the way, you can count me as at least one brewer who can brew something pretty close to MegaSwill (for my few diehard friends and family who will only drink that type of brew) at a cost that is substantially cheaper than buying it.  It may be easier to buy MegaSwill, but it’s a lot less fun, and not necessarily cheaper. Skol, Dean

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Brewmasters, My next batch is going to be an ESB.  I make an effort to get more complicated every batch I make. My next recipe is as follows: 6 lbs. light DME 1 lb. crystal 40L .5 lb. Cara-Pils (dextrine malt) 3 oz. Kent Goldings (60 min) 1.5 oz. Kent Goldings (30 min) 1 oz. Fuggles (1 min) Wyeast 1968 Special London Ale Irish moss I’m looking for tips to make this recipe better (extra ingredients, processes, etc.).  I want to enter this brew in a competition, so I want this to be my best effort yet.  Any info would be greatly appreciated. William —

William, Let me tell you a dirty secret…it doesn’t matter what hop you use for the first addition in a full-flavored ale.  The boil pretty much blows off the flavor and aromatic components of a hop; so, go for one with some strength.   I suggest that you use 1oz of Galena instead of the Kent Goldings (EKG) for your first addition.  It is a clean hop that adds solid bitterness, and blends well with other varieties.   Save your EKG for flavor and aroma additions.   That way, you will have less hops to deal with at the end of the boil.   Remember, one of the most important things to you can do to improve your brew is to leave the break and hops in the kettle.  The resulting beer will be smoother than if you transferred the break and hops to the primary. Have fun! Mark

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of ESBs… I’m planning on brewing one myself (all-grain) sometime soon.  I’ve done a couple of ESBs before, and while I thought they were both very tasty, they weren’t quite what I was shooting for. My "benchmark" ESB is Fuller’s.  I’ve been told (possibly by someone here on the NG?) that Fuller’s ESB contains some corn; I was thinking of using maybe 5-10% cornmeal (pre-boiled to gelatinize the starch) in the mash, to see what happens.  Someone at the local brew club recommended adding some Aromatic malt; while this sounds interesting, it seems a little out of character to me, for a Fuller’s clone.  Anyone have any thoughts or comments to add?

Mike, Almost 50% of my brews contain a percentage of corn.  I have used starch, grits, and meal as well as flaked maize.   For ease of application, flaked maize wins hands down as it is pregelatinized, and, as such, can be added directly to the mash .   For best taste, I have to say that it is a toss up between grits and meal.   As an aside, the grist for Newcastle Brown Ale contains a percentage of corn. Mark

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Brewmasters, My next batch is going to be an ESB.  I make an effort to get more complicated every batch I make. My next recipe is as follows: 6 lbs. light DME 1 lb. crystal 40L .5 lb. Cara-Pils (dextrine malt) 3 oz. Kent Goldings (60 min) 1.5 oz. Kent Goldings (30 min) 1 oz. Fuggles (1 min) Wyeast 1968 Special London Ale Irish moss I’m looking for tips to make this recipe better (extra ingredients, processes, etc.).  I want to enter this brew in a competition, so I want this to be my best effort yet.  Any info would be greatly appreciated. William — William E. Conway Vice President of Risk Management and Loss Prevention Delta Upsilon Fraternity, Georgia Tech Chapter http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt7266b "Beer is the most tangible proof that God loves us and wants us to be  happy" – Benjamin Franklin (paraphrased)

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Brewmasters, My next batch is going to be an ESB.  I make an effort to get more complicated every batch I make.

In some cases, simpler is actually better… My next recipe is as follows: 6 lbs. light DME 1 lb. crystal 40L .5 lb. Cara-Pils (dextrine malt) 3 oz. Kent Goldings (60 min) 1.5 oz. Kent Goldings (30 min) 1 oz. Fuggles (1 min) Wyeast 1968 Special London Ale Irish moss I’m looking for tips to make this recipe better (extra ingredients, processes, etc.).  I want to enter this brew in a competition, so I want this to be my best effort yet.  Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Looks pretty reasonable to me… Personally, I’d hold back some of the Kent Goldings until you turn off the heat, to get some Kent Goldings hop aroma. Speaking of ESBs… I’m planning on brewing one myself (all-grain) sometime soon.  I’ve done a couple of ESBs before, and while I thought they were both very tasty, they weren’t quite what I was shooting for. My "benchmark" ESB is Fuller’s.  I’ve been told (possibly by someone here on the NG?) that Fuller’s ESB contains some corn; I was thinking of using maybe 5-10% cornmeal (pre-boiled to gelatinize the starch) in the mash, to see what happens.  Someone at the local brew club recommended adding some Aromatic malt; while this sounds interesting, it seems a little out of character to me, for a Fuller’s clone.  Anyone have any thoughts or comments to add? —

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Brewmasters, My next batch is going to be an ESB.  I make an effort to get more complicated every batch I make. In some cases, simpler is actually better… My next recipe is as follows: 6 lbs. light DME 1 lb. crystal 40L .5 lb. Cara-Pils (dextrine malt) 3 oz. Kent Goldings (60 min) 1.5 oz. Kent Goldings (30 min) 1 oz. Fuggles (1 min) Wyeast 1968 Special London Ale Irish moss I’m looking for tips to make this recipe better (extra ingredients, processes, etc.).  I want to enter this brew in a competition, so I want this to be my best effort yet.  Any info would be greatly appreciated. Looks pretty reasonable to me… Personally, I’d hold back some of the Kent Goldings until you turn off the heat, to get some Kent Goldings hop aroma. Speaking of ESBs… I’m planning on brewing one myself (all-grain) sometime soon.  I’ve done a couple of ESBs before, and while I thought they were both very tasty, they weren’t quite what I was shooting for. My "benchmark" ESB is Fuller’s.  I’ve been told (possibly by someone here on the NG?) that Fuller’s ESB contains some corn; I was thinking of using maybe 5-10% cornmeal (pre-boiled to gelatinize the starch) in the mash, to see what happens.  Someone at the local brew club recommended adding some Aromatic malt; while this sounds interesting, it seems a little out of character to me, for a Fuller’s clone.  Anyone have any thoughts or comments to add? —

The one thing that I’ve heard about Fuller’s is that the yeast is what contributes a majority of the flavor profile.  The main guy at my brewstore says Wyeast London Ale 1968 is THE Fuller’s yeast.  He even said it doesn’t matter what ingredients you put in the beer, if you use 1968, it’ll taste like Fuller’s.  Seems to me that’s a bit drastic, but I’m no expert! Sandy Christmus, DVM "Mistakes are only horses in disguise; ain’t no need to ride ‘em over ’cause we could not ride ‘em different if we tried."  Guy Clark Sorry, but Spammers have prevailed.  Please remove NO and SPAM for e-mail.

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The one thing that I’ve heard about Fuller’s is that the yeast is what contributes a majority of the flavor profile.  The main guy at my brewstore says Wyeast London Ale 1968 is THE Fuller’s yeast.  He even said it doesn’t matter what ingredients you put in the beer, if you use 1968, it’ll taste like Fuller’s.  Seems to me that’s a bit drastic, but I’m no expert!

I’ve never used 1968; I actually tried to get some the last time I was at the local HB shop, but they didn’t have any in stock.  I already have a starter of 1028 going that I’m going to use for this next batch.  I guess I’ll ask the store to special-order me a pack of the 1968, for next time. —

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6 lbs. light DME 1 lb. crystal 40L .5 lb. Cara-Pils (dextrine malt) 3 oz. Kent Goldings (60 min) 1.5 oz. Kent Goldings (30 min) 1 oz. Fuggles (1 min) Wyeast 1968 Special London Ale

Things to consider: – Reverse Goldings-Fuggles use, aren’t Goldings the favored aroma? – Dry-hop with something – Use British crystal malt, and use 60L, I used 60L paul’s and got   good maltiness in a 1st place ESB. – If you insist on using extract use a pound of wheat extract to improve   head formations and retention, important in contest. – Keep temperature of fermentation at or just below 65F to avoid that   strain from going bat-shit with fusels and esters. Phil

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of ESBs… I’m planning on brewing one myself (all-grain) sometime soon.  I’ve done a couple of ESBs before, and while I thought they were both very tasty, they weren’t quite what I was shooting for. My "benchmark" ESB is Fuller’s.  I’ve been told (possibly by someone here on the NG?) that Fuller’s ESB contains some corn; I was thinking of using maybe 5-10% cornmeal (pre-boiled to gelatinize the starch) in the mash, to see what happens.  Someone at the local brew club recommended adding some Aromatic malt; while this sounds interesting, it seems a little out of character to me, for a Fuller’s clone.  Anyone have any thoughts or comments to add? The one thing that I’ve heard about Fuller’s is that the yeast is what contributes a majority of the flavor profile.  The main guy at my brewstore says Wyeast London Ale 1968 is THE Fuller’s yeast.  He even said it doesn’t matter what ingredients you put in the beer, if you use 1968, it’ll taste like Fuller’s.  Seems to me that’s a bit drastic, but I’m no expert!

My local homebrew store brews the beer in one of the local brewpubs and they use 1968 in *all* their beers – pilsner, scottish, imperial stout, etc… and they all do have a distinct taste – it sort of reminds me of Fullers but certainly they don’t taste exactly like Fullers.  I know they ferment at different temps to get different taste profiles, and their ESB is close to Fullers, but certainly not a clone. Then again, we have a hard time getting real fresh Fullers. Does Fullers use the same yeast in all their beers? I used 1968 in my ESB and it came out close to Fullers – the hops were off instead of the yeast though – go figure.   Has anyone made up a chart that states which brewery the Wyeast strains come from?  Might be a good project….. Will "Just because I don’t care doesn’t mean I don’t understand" – Homer J. Simpson

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