Brewing Master

Question:

As I posted here a few days ago there have reports that copper in beer causes gastro-intestinal problems. I don’t remember the amounts involved.  The acid in beer shouldn’t leach any, rather caustics (high p.h. like bleach or sodium hydroxide) do.

This is totally false. In fact, low pH (i.e., acidity) causes most metals, including copper, to become *more* soluble, not less soluble. The acid in your beer will in fact release free ionic copper (the most biologically available, and hence most toxic form) into solution (i.e., your beer) which will be available to your gastrointestinal tract for uptake. Similarly, high pH causes equilibrium reactions to occur in the other direction, which will cause any available copper to bind with things like carbonates and hydroxides in solution, which make for larger molecules, making them more difficult to absorb into your system. Having said that, don’t panic. Copper is an essential metal at trace concentrations — you need it to live. At high concentrations it tends to accumulate in your liver and kidneys. At even higher concentrations it can be toxic. The gastrointestinal problems cited above probably have something to do with an irritation of the inner layer of the GI tract, likely due to copper absorption by this tissue. I’m not a medical doctor, so don’t take this as medical advice, but it’s an effect that’s been demonstrated in several mammals and fish after exposure to high levels of copper delivered through the diet. Greg. — Greg Pyle Dept. of Biology University of Saskatchewan http://www.usask.ca/~pyle

Response:

I missed the beginning of this thread, but I have a question that relates to what Greg just wrote. What about the copper mash tuns and kettles many brewing company’s use? Don’t they release high levels of copper ions into the wort? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I missed the beginning of this thread, but I have a question that relates to what Greg just wrote. What about the copper mash tuns and kettles many brewing company’s use? Don’t they release high levels of copper ions into the wort?

My purpose was simply to point out that low pH causes an increase in copper solubility, which is contrary to the views of a previous poster.  While it’s probably true that high levels of copper taken through the gut lining cause gastrointestinal difficulties owing to copper-induced irritation, I’m not aware of any similar irritations regularly caused by the many commercially-available beers made from copper equipment.  I’m sure its simply that copper concentrations rarely exceed levels necessary to cause G.I. irritation from wort made using copper equipment. Greg. — Greg Pyle Dept. of Biology University of Saskatchewan http://www.usask.ca/~pyle

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – } } } } I missed the beginning of this thread, but I have a question that relates to } what Greg just wrote. What about the copper mash tuns and kettles many } brewing company’s use? Don’t they release high levels of copper ions into } the wort? } } }My purpose was simply to point out that low pH causes an increase in copper }solubility, which is contrary to the views of a previous poster.  While it’s }probably true that high levels of copper taken through the gut lining cause }gastrointestinal difficulties owing to copper-induced irritation, I’m not aware }of any similar irritations regularly caused by the many commercially-available }beers made from copper equipment.  I’m sure its simply that copper }concentrations rarely exceed levels necessary to cause G.I. irritation from }wort made using copper equipment.

It should also be noted, however, that a surface layer of oxides and sulfides forms on the copper used in the brewing process.  These are much less soluble under normal brewing conditions that pure copper. Unless you scrub that layer off (or remove it chemically) the amount of copper leaching into your brew after the first few batches will be negligible. It is also worth noting that excessive copper levels in the wort would kill the yeast. Dr H

Response:

But what about after the brewing is done and you clean the kettle? I’m assuming that a normal wash would not have this effect, and that it would take a scrub or chemical cleaning to remove this layer, is this correct? Also don’t the yeast derive needed nutrients from the copper ions? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

But what about after the brewing is done and you clean the kettle? I’m assuming that a normal wash would not have this effect, and that it would take a scrub or chemical cleaning to remove this layer, is this correct? Also don’t the yeast derive needed nutrients from the copper ions?

After you’ve brewed a couple of batches, only very tiny amounts of copper will leach into your beer from your equepment. As the previous poster mentioned, you’d probably have to chemically treat your equipment to remove the insoluble copper sulphides and oxides (like heating in concentrated sulphuric acid). As for yeast requiring copper for nutriment, all the copper they need is most likely to come from your local water supply or from the malt you used to make your wort.  Excessive copper would be lethal to them. It may be that if you’re seeing good yeast activity in your wort made from copper equipment, the mere fact that the yeast are active is likely indicative of low copper levels in your wort. Perhaps one other point is worth noting.  I suspect that the "copper" used in copper equipment is not pure copper, but rather a copper alloy. If that’s true, it may be that the alloy is more resistant to copper leaching into your wort relative to pure copper equipment. I wonder if any analytical brewers have ICP-MS or similar data on wort brewed in copper and non-copper equipment, or median lethal concentrations of copper on yeast? — Greg Pyle Dept. of Biology University of Saskatchewan http://www.usask.ca/~pyle

Response:

My understanding is that you should spring for the SS coil if you are building a jockey box.  Although copper is ok for relatively short contact times, it is not good to let beer stay in contact with it for long periods of time.  I think there is a reaction that causes you beer to quickly oxidize. With that said, I don’t know what is considered a ‘long’ period of time.  My guess is that if you were careful to clean the coils after every use (just as you should for SS coils) there would not be a problem.  If you plan to have beer more or less permanently tapped through the box, then you may be in trouble. <insert standard disclaimer here I am not aware of any beer / copper reaction that could result in health problems, just oxidized beer.

As I posted here a few days ago there have reports that copper in beer causes gastro-intestinal problems. I don’t remember the amounts involved.  The acid in beer shouldn’t leach any, rather caustics (high p.h. like bleach or sodium hydroxide) do. So if you do use copper, don’t use caustic cleaning solutions.  Use some of the new non-caustics on the market.  Check your homebrew store or favorite brew-mag for names, numbers.  I like the rinseless ones because they don’t leave a white film on things like the ones you have to rinse.                 Patrick Fimbres                 Tucson AZ Brew for Health!

Response:

Copper will work just fine. The only way beer will get oxidized is if it comes in contact with oxygen. Copper does not contain oxygen.

Response:

You do not need oxygen to oxidize beer. Copper will work just fine. The only way beer will get oxidized is if it comes in contact with oxygen. Copper does not contain oxygen.

– James Tomlinson Give a man a beer, and he wastes an hour. But teach a man how to brew, and he wastes a lifetime! Muddy Waters Brewery

Response:

My understanding is that you should spring for the SS coil if you are building a jockey box.  Although copper is ok for relatively short contact times, it is not good to let beer stay in contact with it for long periods of time.  I think there is a reaction that causes you beer to quickly oxidize. With that said, I don’t know what is considered a ‘long’ period of time.  My guess is that if you were careful to clean the coils after every use (just as you should for SS coils) there would not be a problem.  If you plan to have beer more or less permanently tapped through the box, then you may be in trouble. <insert standard disclaimer here I am not aware of any beer / copper reaction that could result in health problems, just oxidized beer. –Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My buddy wants to know if it is safe to use copper tubing (50′ coil) inside a ice chest or refridgerator to chill home brew that he makes in syrup (soda/pop concentrate)cans. Stainless is pretty expensive but we have concerns using copper. Any thoughts from the pros?

Response:

My buddy wants to know if it is safe to use copper tubing (50′ coil) inside a ice chest or refridgerator to chill home brew that he makes in syrup (soda/pop concentrate)cans. Stainless is pretty expensive but we have concerns using copper. Any thoughts from the pros?

Response: