Brewing Master

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About to head off for three weeks in colder climes, and I discover that with a type of wisdom of the marketplace that pervades retail estblishments in Los Angeles, there appears to be no reason for them to stock anti-freeze cleaner solution to fill my windshield washer resevoir. My inclination is to part-fill it with the ’summer’ cleaner, and carry a bottle of rubbing alcohol to dilute it as temperatures fall. Does anyone know if this works well, or have a better home-brew formula? Appreciate any info. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Amazing how much good information has come from this thread. Restores my faith in newsgroups. ;^) Thanks to all. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Methanol is available at full service propane dealers.  It is added to fuel tanks on hot-air balloons to prevent valve icing.  Would not hurt to have it in RV fuel tanks. Regards, Tex Houston

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Our chemical safety folks rate methanol as just as flammable as ethanol. Any toxicity would come from ingestion, absorption through the skin or prolonged breathing, followed by metabolism to toxic metabolites. I think it is used because it is cheaper to produce than ethanol. Methanol used to be added to grain alcohol (ethanol) to make it undrinkable, but all the denatured ethanol I have run into in the last few years had acetone. Joe Near Be careful. "Rubbing alcohol" is either isopropanol or ethanol with acetone to make it undrinkable. Most of the winterized windshield cleaner I have used contained methanol (methyl alcohol). I would worry about the effect of either the isopropanol or the acetone additive on the washer system, wipers and windshield gaskets, and vehicle paint. Sorry, I am not an expert on paint (gimme a break, I’m just tryin’ to help out here).. Why not put a little of the summer stuff in at a time, as needed, then buy some of the winter stuff when you get to the colder climate? Alternative, buy some methyl alcohol and add it to water with a little ivory liquid. Try it in a disposable container first, to make sure the alcohol doesn’t cause the soap to come out of solution. Joe Near About to head off for three weeks in colder climes, and I discover that with a type of wisdom of the marketplace that pervades retail estblishments in Los Angeles, there appears to be no reason for them to stock anti-freeze cleaner solution to fill my windshield washer resevoir. My inclination is to part-fill it with the ’summer’ cleaner, and carry a bottle of rubbing alcohol to dilute it as temperatures fall. Does anyone know if this works well, or have a better home-brew formula? Appreciate any info. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Joe, the rubbing alcohol I have is isopropanol, and I don’t think it will harm the paint. It IS a good solvent for permanent ink, though. I also don’t know how it will affect the soap solution. Ethanol, of course, is very flammable, so I want to avoid that, even though it is available in hardware stores. Since it is ‘wood’ or ‘grain’ alcohol, this is the one with the denaturing agent to make it undrinkable. Methanol is harder to come by – I don’t know of any common sources. It is toxic to skin contact, and this is probably why it is hard to find. Perhaps it lowers the solution freezing point more than the others, though. Thanks for the info. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Our chemical safety folks rate methanol as just as flammable as ethanol. Any toxicity would come from ingestion, absorption through the skin or prolonged breathing, followed by metabolism to toxic metabolites. I think it is used because it is cheaper to produce than ethanol. Methanol used to be added to grain alcohol (ethanol) to make it undrinkable, but all the denatured ethanol I have run into in the last few years had acetone. Joe Near – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Be careful. "Rubbing alcohol" is either isopropanol or ethanol with acetone to make it undrinkable. Most of the winterized windshield cleaner I have used contained methanol (methyl alcohol). I would worry about the effect of either the isopropanol or the acetone additive on the washer system, wipers and windshield gaskets, and vehicle paint. Sorry, I am not an expert on paint (gimme a break, I’m just tryin’ to help out here).. Why not put a little of the summer stuff in at a time, as needed, then buy some of the winter stuff when you get to the colder climate? Alternative, buy some methyl alcohol and add it to water with a little ivory liquid. Try it in a disposable container first, to make sure the alcohol doesn’t cause the soap to come out of solution. Joe Near About to head off for three weeks in colder climes, and I discover that with a type of wisdom of the marketplace that pervades retail estblishments in Los Angeles, there appears to be no reason for them to stock anti-freeze cleaner solution to fill my windshield washer resevoir. My inclination is to part-fill it with the ’summer’ cleaner, and carry a bottle of rubbing alcohol to dilute it as temperatures fall. Does anyone know if this works well, or have a better home-brew formula? Appreciate any info. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t. Joe, the rubbing alcohol I have is isopropanol, and I don’t think it will harm the paint. It IS a good solvent for permanent ink, though. I also don’t know how it will affect the soap solution. Ethanol, of course, is very flammable, so I want to avoid that, even though it is available in hardware stores. Since it is ‘wood’ or ‘grain’ alcohol, this is the one with the denaturing agent to make it undrinkable. Methanol is harder to come by – I don’t know of any common sources. It is toxic to skin contact, and this is probably why it is hard to find. Perhaps it lowers the solution freezing point more than the others, though. Thanks for the info. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Wait til you get to the "cold"area and get some there before it gets real cold.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About to head off for three weeks in colder climes, and I discover that with a type of wisdom of the marketplace that pervades retail estblishments in Los Angeles, there appears to be no reason for them to stock anti-freeze cleaner solution to fill my windshield washer resevoir. My inclination is to part-fill it with the ’summer’ cleaner, and carry a bottle of rubbing alcohol to dilute it as temperatures fall. Does anyone know if this works well, or have a better home-brew formula? Appreciate any info. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Pick some up when you get to the colder climate. Steve

Response:

Just a thought. Try your local school bus garage. I believe the feds require them to use a DOT approved windshield washer which contains the antifreeze. ChrisW About to head off for three weeks in colder climes, and I discover that with a type of wisdom of the marketplace that pervades retail estblishments in Los Angeles, there appears to be no reason for them to stock anti-freeze cleaner solution to fill my windshield washer resevoir. My inclination is to part-fill it with the ’summer’ cleaner, and carry a bottle of rubbing alcohol to dilute it as temperatures fall. Does anyone know if this works well, or have a better home-brew formula? Appreciate any info. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Response:

Thanks, Mike. BTW, IPA is an excellent solvent for permanent ink, which neither ethyl nor methyl alcohols are. I discovered it by accident, but have found even many chemists are unaware of it. It’s effectiveness is inversely proportional to the # of weeks, months, or years since the ink was applied. Thought you might want to know if you don’t already. Steve

Thanks Steve.  Yes, I do know that.  What you’ve described (proportional to the # of weeks, months, or years) is also the difference between a spot and a stain.  That’s why ’some’ black streaks on RVs are next to impossible to remove. Mike, CA RVChem

Response:

Steve, Ethanol, of course, is very flammable, so I want to avoid that, even though it is available in hardware stores. Since it is ‘wood’ or ‘grain’ alcohol, this is the one with the denaturing agent to make it undrinkable.

One minor quibble.  Ethanol, otherwise called grain alcohol, is NOT wood alcohol.  Wood alcohol is methanol, which you can purchase at paint stores.  I’ve purchased 95% ethanol (190 proof) at booze stores under the name of "Everclear".   Everything else you wrote is quite correct, including the bit about "denaturing" ethanol.         — Gerry  (retired PhD chemist)

Response:

About to head off for three weeks in colder climes, and I discover that with a type of wisdom of the marketplace that pervades retail estblishments in Los Angeles, there appears to be no reason for them to stock anti-freeze cleaner solution to fill my windshield washer resevoir. My inclination is to part-fill it with the ’summer’ cleaner, and carry a bottle of rubbing alcohol to dilute it as temperatures fall. Does anyone know if this works well, or have a better home-brew formula? Appreciate any info.

Just use your regular mix of wiper fluid and save your money, cause even IF it did freeze this time of year (doubtful), the heat from your engine would melt any "ice" in your resevoir. Gary

Response:

[snip] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About to head off for three weeks in colder climes, and I discover that with a type of wisdom of the marketplace that pervades retail estblishments in Los Angeles, there appears to be no reason for them to stock anti-freeze cleaner solution to fill my windshield washer resevoir. My inclination is to part-fill it with the ’summer’ cleaner, and carry a bottle of rubbing alcohol to dilute it as temperatures fall. Does anyone know if this works well, or have a better home-brew formula? Appreciate any info. Steve

[snip] Methanol is harder to come by – I don’t know of any common sources. It is toxic to skin contact, and this is probably why it is hard to find. Perhaps it lowers the solution freezing point more than the others, though.

The last time I bought fondue fuel it was methanol (actually I think it said "methyl hydrate"), but a 250ml bottle cost the same as a 4-litre jug of windshield washer juice. Why not wait till you get to your cold destination and buy real windshield washer juice in the nearest gas station ?

Response:

Steve, You’ve received some excellent advice, most notably from Gerald Pearson.  (BTW Gerry, your formula for cleaning opticals is right on.)  Just DON’T add detergent or vinegar to an automotive windshield washer system. You also received an appropriate warning from Joe Near, but isopropanol alcohol, either in store bought formulation or compounded (home brewed) as Gerald suggests, causes little decernable damage to the rubber components of a car. Some STP products contain a lot of it. Crestline Chemical Co. has been manufacturing various glass cleaners for over 35 years and many of them contain IPA as both a drying and non-streak aid. Mike, CA RVChem – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About to head off for three weeks in colder climes, and I discover that with a type of wisdom of the marketplace that pervades retail estblishments in Los Angeles, there appears to be no reason for them to stock anti-freeze cleaner solution to fill my windshield washer resevoir. My inclination is to part-fill it with the ’summer’ cleaner, and carry a bottle of rubbing alcohol to dilute it as temperatures fall. Does anyone know if this works well, or have a better home-brew formula? Appreciate any info. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Steve, You’ve received some excellent advice, most notably from Gerald Pearson.  (BTW Gerry, your formula for cleaning opticals is right on.)  Just DON’T add detergent or vinegar to an automotive windshield washer system. You also received an appropriate warning from Joe Near, but

isopropanol alcohol, either in store bought formulation or compounded (home brewed) as Gerald suggests, causes little decernable damage to the rubber components of a car. Some STP products contain a lot of it. Crestline Chemical Co. has been manufacturing various glass cleaners for over 35 years and many of them contain IPA as both a drying and non-streak aid. Mike, CA RVChem

Thanks, Mike. BTW, IPA is an excellent solvent for permanent ink, which neither ethyl nor methyl alcohols are. I discovered it by accident, but have found even many chemists are unaware of it. It’s effectiveness is inversely proportional to the # of weeks, months, or years since the ink was applied. Thought you might want to know if you don’t already. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

It ought to work.    Cheap rubbing alcohol is 70% isopropyl alcohol, alias

isopropanol. Better for your use would be 90% isopropyl alcohol, sold by some drugstores, and 99% would probably be slightly better.  I can even buy 99% isopropyl alcohol in the pharmacy section of the local Hy Vee grocery store in Muscatine Iowa, but not at the local Walgreens drug store.    I suspect that you’ll need a lot more than a single tiny

one-pint bottle of the stuff.  I would guess that you’d need the washer fluid to be at least 25% isopropanol to get a really significant drop in the freezing point — i.e. to get significant protection from freezing.  FWIW, I _DO_ know for sure that 50% will give excellent protection — I’ve never seen 50/50 water/isopropanol even start to freeze in a bottle outside in any Iowa winter during the last several years during which I’ve used it as a glass cleaner. Also, as you get into the colder climes, you should be able to find

suitable windshield washer fluid. FWIW, I make my own optical lens cleaner as follows:  50/50 mixture of

distilled water and the purest isopropyl alcohol I can obtain, plus one tiny drop of liquid dishwashing detergent per quart of mix.  Works great for eyeglasses, camera lenses, binoculars, monoculars, telescope eyepieces, and refractor telescope objectives.  Works better than any commercial lens cleaner I’ve ever tried.  I’ve found that it also works well on mirrors and also to clean the insides of vehicle windows.  A few years ago, I sprayed it on outside mirrors which were covered with ice, and was very pleased to see not only that the ice melted, but also that the mirrors drained clear without me having to wipe them off.    – Gerry

Thanks, Gerry. This is the info I was hoping for. The drugstore stuff I get is 90%, but I’ll check the supermrkets too. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

About to head off for three weeks in colder climes, …   My inclination is to part-fill it with the ’summer’ cleaner, and carry a bottle of rubbing alcohol to dilute it as temperatures fall. Does anyone know if this works well, or have a better home-brew formula?

It ought to work.         Cheap rubbing alcohol is 70% isopropyl alcohol, alias isopropanol. Better for your use would be 90% isopropyl alcohol, sold by some drugstores, and 99% would probably be slightly better.  I can even buy 99% isopropyl alcohol in the pharmacy section of the local Hy Vee grocery store in Muscatine Iowa, but not at the local Walgreens drug store.           I suspect that you’ll need a lot more than a single tiny one-pint bottle of the stuff.  I would guess that you’d need the washer fluid to be at least 25% isopropanol to get a really significant drop in the freezing point — i.e. to get significant protection from freezing.  FWIW, I _DO_ know for sure that 50% will give excellent protection — I’ve never seen 50/50 water/isopropanol even start to freeze in a bottle outside in any Iowa winter during the last several years during which I’ve used it as a glass cleaner. Also, as you get into the colder climes, you should be able to find suitable windshield washer fluid. FWIW, I make my own optical lens cleaner as follows:  50/50 mixture of distilled water and the purest isopropyl alcohol I can obtain, plus one tiny drop of liquid dishwashing detergent per quart of mix.  Works great for eyeglasses, camera lenses, binoculars, monoculars, telescope eyepieces, and refractor telescope objectives.  Works better than any commercial lens cleaner I’ve ever tried.  I’ve found that it also works well on mirrors and also to clean the insides of vehicle windows.  A few years ago, I sprayed it on outside mirrors which were covered with ice, and was very pleased to see not only that the ice melted, but also that the mirrors drained clear without me having to wipe them off.         — Gerry

Response:

Fill your reservoir only part way with the summer stuff and buy a gallon of winter mix when you get to those colder climes. Just how cold will it get in September anyway? Are you going to the North Pole? John Davies

John, I wanted to avoid the hassle of looking for the stuff enroute. We’re headed to Yellowstone, Tetons, Montana, Colorado, etc, throught the first week of october. Some of the desert travelling could exceed 100F in the daytime, and some of the mountain travel in the teens at night. Reports in this group have reported snowstorms that time of year. It is probably the least predictable season. My experience in the Sierra’s in early october have included snow flurries in the day and low twenties at night – and this is a warm state! I haven’t worried about this before because the old resevoir had cracks that wouldn’t allow more than 1/4 full – maybe it froze when the previous owner wasn’t careful? It has now been replaced, so I’m babying it. :^) Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Be careful. "Rubbing alcohol" is either isopropanol or ethanol with acetone to make it undrinkable. Most of the winterized windshield cleaner I have used contained methanol (methyl alcohol). I would worry about the effect of either the isopropanol or the acetone additive on the washer system, wipers and windshield gaskets, and vehicle paint. Sorry, I am not an expert on paint (gimme a break, I’m just tryin’ to help out here).. Why not put a little of the summer stuff in at a time, as needed, then buy some of the winter stuff when you get to the colder climate? Alternative, buy some methyl alcohol and add it to water with a little ivory liquid. Try it in a disposable container first, to make sure the alcohol doesn’t cause the soap to come out of solution. Joe Near About to head off for three weeks in colder climes, and I discover that with a type of wisdom of the marketplace that pervades retail estblishments in Los Angeles, there appears to be no reason for them to stock anti-freeze cleaner solution to fill my windshield washer resevoir. My inclination is to part-fill it with the ’summer’ cleaner, and carry a bottle of rubbing alcohol to dilute it as temperatures fall. Does anyone know if this works well, or have a better home-brew formula? Appreciate any info. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Joe, the rubbing alcohol I have is isopropanol, and I don’t think it will harm the paint. It IS a good solvent for permanent ink, though. I also don’t know how it will affect the soap solution. Ethanol, of course, is very flammable, so I want to avoid that, even though it is available in hardware stores. Since it is ‘wood’ or ‘grain’ alcohol, this is the one with the denaturing agent to make it undrinkable. Methanol is harder to come by – I don’t know of any common sources. It is toxic to skin contact, and this is probably why it is hard to find. Perhaps it lowers the solution freezing point more than the others, though. Thanks for the info. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Fill your reservoir only part way with the summer stuff and buy a gallon of winter mix when you get to those colder climes. Just how cold will it get in September anyway? Are you going to the North Pole? John Davies – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About to head off for three weeks in colder climes, and I discover that with a type of wisdom of the marketplace that pervades retail estblishments in Los Angeles, there appears to be no reason for them to stock anti-freeze cleaner solution to fill my windshield washer resevoir. My inclination is to part-fill it with the ’summer’ cleaner, and carry a bottle of rubbing alcohol to dilute it as temperatures fall. Does anyone know if this works well, or have a better home-brew formula? Appreciate any info. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

About to head off for three weeks in colder climes, and I discover that with a type of wisdom of the marketplace that pervades retail estblishments in Los Angeles, there appears to be no reason for them to stock anti-freeze cleaner solution to fill my windshield washer resevoir. My inclination is to part-fill it with the ’summer’ cleaner, and carry a bottle of rubbing alcohol to dilute it as temperatures fall. Does anyone know if this works well, or have a better home-brew formula? Appreciate any info. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Be careful. "Rubbing alcohol" is either isopropanol or ethanol with acetone to make it undrinkable. Most of the winterized windshield cleaner I have used contained methanol (methyl alcohol). I would worry about the effect of either the isopropanol or the acetone additive on the washer system, wipers and windshield gaskets, and vehicle paint. Sorry, I am not an expert on paint (gimme a break, I’m just tryin’ to help out here).. Why not put a little of the summer stuff in at a time, as needed, then buy some of the winter stuff when you get to the colder climate? Alternative, buy some methyl alcohol and add it to water with a little ivory liquid. Try it in a disposable container first, to make sure the alcohol doesn’t cause the soap to come out of solution. Joe Near – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – About to head off for three weeks in colder climes, and I discover that with a type of wisdom of the marketplace that pervades retail estblishments in Los Angeles, there appears to be no reason for them to stock anti-freeze cleaner solution to fill my windshield washer resevoir. My inclination is to part-fill it with the ’summer’ cleaner, and carry a bottle of rubbing alcohol to dilute it as temperatures fall. Does anyone know if this works well, or have a better home-brew formula? Appreciate any info. Steve Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response: