Brewing Master

Question:

Thanks for the tips. I have decided to give it a little bit longer. But I’ve kinda decided my general rule of thumb will be if I can’t even stand to swallow it after primary fermentation, I’ll cut my losses and try again.

Yep.  If it’s really nasty, you have encountered a fatal error, and what you have brewed is in fact not even really beer. Don’t sweat it, we’ve all done it. The 1st batch sanitation was like this – about a gallon (5l) dilute bleach which I swooshed around the fermenter, and rolled it over leaving the bleach on each part of the fermenter for at least 20 mins (took a couple of hours), then rinsed with rainwater twice (!), then with boiling water twice. I guess it worked ok.

Not only does this sound like a pain, if I understand you correctly, you’re courting disaster.  The first rinse — do you mean pre-boiled rainwater?  If not, you just undid whatever sanitizing the bleach step provided.  And this second rinse — you don’t actually mean boiling water, do you?  Since you describe "rolling over" your fermenter, I assume that means you are using glass.  I’d be surprised if a glass carboy could survive boiling water. Pre-boiled water is good to rinse with, provided it hasn’t been left open to the air while cooling.  However, even a covered pot sitting on the stove will suck in some air from the room as the "headspace" cools.  As you can see, you really can’t win, at least not completely. No sanitization method is guaranteed.  That is why homebrewers tend to get experience to see what works, and then stick with it. It also helps explain the popularity of the no-rinse sanitizers. Now, raise your hand if, like me, you’ve been known to rinse with plain hot tap water, and get away with it over and over.

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thanks for the tips. I have decided to give it a little bit longer. But I’ve kinda decided my general rule of thumb will be if I can’t even stand to swallow it after primary fermentation, I’ll cut my losses and try again. This 2nd batch is like that – really, really disgusting and I can’t stand to swallow it. I tasted a bottle of 1st batch just to try it out – it’s actually turned out ok, and that’s after just over a week in the bottle. A little fruity/ester and a little bitter – but not too much for an ale – I’ll just drop the fermentation temp a bit next time to drop the esters and I’m tipping the bitterness will fade a bit with time. What can be done to improve head though? Oh yeah, bregent – I used boiled rainwater for the 1st batch, spring water for the 2nd. The 1st batch sanitation was like this – about a gallon (5l) dilute bleach which I swooshed around the fermenter, and rolled it over leaving the bleach on each part of the fermenter for at least 20 mins (took a couple of hours), then rinsed with rainwater twice (!), then with boiling water twice. I guess it worked ok

Yikes, that sounds like it was a pain! Try to find some Iodophor or StarSan – it will save a lot of work. Also, a no-rinse bleach solution can me made at 20PPM. You need to have a 30 minute contact time, and the fermenter should be drained very well.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Doug, I’m aware that the article was not refering to using H2O2 as a sanitizer. However, I was under the impression that the OP was using BrewShield as a water/wort conditioner and so it would have the same effect if used in similar concentrations. I’m not sure how the OP was using the product. The original poster was using Brew-shield as a sanitizer.  This is the sanitizer that contains colloidal silver and a peroxide.  There were some posting last year about this sanitizer.  It reportably works. It might. IIRC, the FDA maintains that colloidal silver is not an effective sanitizer. BrewShield may work fine, but it doesn’t have the track record of StarSan or Iodophor which is why I stated that I wouldn’t use it. I’m a bit leary of a product that claims to be an effective fungacide, but also won’t harm yeast.

I used this product quite extensively in my early brewing days, and when using it as my main sanitiser I had infections.  As a spray-on and surface sanitiser, and as fluid for a 2 part airlock, it seems to work well and I still use it for that.  I have had brew-shield in the airlock of a carboy of mead that’s been sitting around for over a year, and there is NO growth of mold in the airlock, but an airlock with just water in it develops mold in a couple of weeks in our climate. These days, I mainly use bleach, but will probably switch to iodophor when I place my next mail order for supplies. Since switching over to bleach I have had ZERO infections, period. cheers, Colin Brisbane, Australia

Response:

I’m a bit leary of a product that claims to be an effective fungacide, but also won’t harm yeast.

I agree with that.  It really says it is beneficial to yeast.  Hard to believe a sanitizer can be beneficial to "brewery flora" "Brew-shield is beer friendly, odourless and exhibits no influence on taste, yet has a beneficial effect on the entire brewery flora."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… 2. Is H202 ok as a sanitiser? (I’d normally use bleach but my current abode is on rainwater which is no good for rinsing) I wouldn’t use H2O2 as some problems have been reported: http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue4.6/miller.html If you can get some, try either Iodophor or StarSan sanitizers. Both are very effective and no-rinse. This article does not comment on using hydrogen peroxide as a sanitizer for brewing equipment.  It says that hydrogen peroxide will not work well for sterilizing air from an aquarium pump because the author feels the air will retain a strong rubber smell. It also says that hydrogen peroxide does not work to oxygenate wort.  It just kills the yeast.

Doug, I’m aware that the article was not refering to using H2O2 as a sanitizer. However, I was under the impression that the OP was using BrewShield as a water/wort conditioner and so it would have the same effect if used in similar concentrations. I’m not sure how the OP was using the product. The original poster was using Brew-shield as a sanitizer.  This is the sanitizer that contains colloidal silver and a peroxide.  There were some posting last year about this sanitizer.  It reportably works.

It might. IIRC, the FDA maintains that colloidal silver is not an effective sanitizer. BrewShield may work fine, but it doesn’t have the track record of StarSan or Iodophor which is why I stated that I wouldn’t use it. I’m a bit leary of a product that claims to be an effective fungacide, but also won’t harm yeast.

Response:

Thanks for the tips. I have decided to give it a little bit longer. But I’ve kinda decided my general rule of thumb will be if I can’t even stand to swallow it after primary fermentation, I’ll cut my losses and try again. This 2nd batch is like that – really, really disgusting and I can’t stand to swallow it. I tasted a bottle of 1st batch just to try it out – it’s actually turned out ok, and that’s after just over a week in the bottle. A little fruity/ester and a little bitter – but not too much for an ale – I’ll just drop the fermentation temp a bit next time to drop the esters and I’m tipping the bitterness will fade a bit with time. What can be done to improve head though? Oh yeah, bregent – I used boiled rainwater for the 1st batch, spring water for the 2nd. The 1st batch sanitation was like this – about a gallon (5l) dilute bleach which I swooshed around the fermenter, and rolled it over leaving the bleach on each part of the fermenter for at least 20 mins (took a couple of hours), then rinsed with rainwater twice (!), then with boiling water twice. I guess it worked ok. This is definitely a great hobby, and excellent to have a group like this for expert advice – much appreciated. Thanks again, Paul

Response:

Paul- Welcome to the brewing hobby… We sort of have a motto – "Don’t dump a batch until you HAVE to" – or something like that… The point is that a lot of things happen during fermentation, aging, etc. You don’t know it’s bad until you KNOW it’s bad. Time is your friend in these matters. Give your batch some time for things to settle down. When it comes time to bottle (or whatever) then you can decide if it’s worth the effort or not. — Matt Jarvis www.BrewDomain.com Eugene, Oregon USA

Response:

says… 2. Is H202 ok as a sanitiser? (I’d normally use bleach but my current abode is on rainwater which is no good for rinsing) I wouldn’t use H2O2 as some problems have been reported: http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue4.6/miller.html If you can get some, try either Iodophor or StarSan sanitizers. Both are very effective and no-rinse.

This article does not comment on using hydrogen peroxide as a sanitizer for brewing equipment.  It says that hydrogen peroxide will not work well for sterilizing air from an aquarium pump because the author feels the air will retain a strong rubber smell. It also says that hydrogen peroxide does not work to oxygenate wort.  It just kills the yeast. The original poster was using Brew-shield as a sanitizer.  This is the sanitizer that contains colloidal silver and a peroxide.  There were some posting last year about this sanitizer.  It reportably works. http://www.homebrew.com.au/brewshie.htm Hydrogen peroxide by itself is not a recommended sanitizer according to this article by James Liddil and John Palmer.  It will work but you have to use a 3% concentration to sanitize in 10 minutes.  This is the concentration that is sold in the store so it would be expensive to use. http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/cleaning.html#h2o2 As stated, Iodophor and StarSan are excellent.  I use Iodophor. With any sanitizer, it is very important to clean the equipment before sanitizing.  You cannot easily sanitize a dirty surface.  I suspect that your equipment may not have been clean enough and that may have caused an infection in your batch. Also, Mexican Cerveza is usually a lager.  What yeast was used?  74 F is warm for fermenting a lager. Doug

Response:

the vinegar smell/taste is usually associated with wild yeasts getting into your brew causing it to become vinegar instead of beer. As for your beer (1st batch) being way to bitter, its hard to say.  What kind of beers do you usually drink?  The IPA you made is intentionally very bitter.  The extra hops (historically) were added to act as a preservative for long trips from GB to India (i.e. India Pale Ale).  Maybe a more mellow style is more to your taste. I don’t know how I feel about your peroxide steriliser, as I’ve personally never heard of a h202 sterilizer used in brewing.  I use StarSan , which is also no rinse and have no problems.  If your sterilizer was made for brewing then I’m sure its fine.  Also, don’t forget that you need to clean everything before you sterilize it.  I’m pretty sure that you have an infection in that beer (bacteria or wild yeast), based on the fact that you said that it smells like vinegar. Good Luck Joe

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, Sorry to ask some pretty newbie questions but I trust the advice from here even more than from a brewshop. I made my first batch a couple of weeks ago, a simple Coopers IPA kit just to get me started – so far it seems to be going ok, bottled it and will taste it later this week, although the SG of that one only went down to about 12 instead of 6 which I thought it would be. But the real problem is with the 2nd batch – another kit , a Mexican Cerveza. It’s pretty much stopped fermenting after 3.5 days of good fermentation at about 24C (74F) and now has a good SG reading. But the brew looks and tastes pretty bloody terrible. Drawing off a sample it is incredibly cloudy (almost milky) and smells like vinegar. After sitting in a glass for about 15 mins it leaves a milky white residue at the bottom. The taste is not something I’d associate with good beer either – chemical and bitter. I used a thing called Brew Shield here in Australia which is a peroxide steriliser. So a couple of questions- 1. What’s wrong with the brew – big time infection? 2. Is H202 ok as a sanitiser? (I’d normally use bleach but my current abode is on rainwater which is no good for rinsing) 3. What exactly should the brew taste like after primary fermentation? Even my 1st batch tasted quite bitter and probably not something I could drink a lot of. So should I just dump this batch and try again? I’d rather not waste bottles on it if it isn’t going to be drinkable. Cheers Paul

Response:

Hi, Sorry to ask some pretty newbie questions but I trust the advice from here even more than from a brewshop. I made my first batch a couple of weeks ago, a simple Coopers IPA kit just to get me started – so far it seems to be going ok, bottled it and will taste it later this week, although the SG of that one only went down to about 12 instead of 6 which I thought it would be. But the real problem is with the 2nd batch – another kit , a Mexican Cerveza. It’s pretty much stopped fermenting after 3.5 days of good fermentation at about 24C (74F) and now has a good SG reading. But the brew looks and tastes pretty bloody terrible. Drawing off a sample it is incredibly cloudy (almost milky) and smells like vinegar. After sitting in a glass for about 15 mins it leaves a milky white residue at the bottom. The taste is not something I’d associate with good beer either – chemical and bitter. I used a thing called Brew Shield here in Australia which is a peroxide steriliser. So a couple of questions- 1. What’s wrong with the brew – big time infection?   2. Is H202 ok as a sanitiser? (I’d normally use bleach but my current abode is on rainwater which is no good for rinsing) 3. What exactly should the brew taste like after primary fermentation? Even my 1st batch tasted quite bitter and probably not something I could drink a lot of. So should I just dump this batch and try again? I’d rather not waste bottles on it if it isn’t going to be drinkable. Cheers Paul

Response:

says… Hi, Sorry to ask some pretty newbie questions but I trust the advice from here even more than from a brewshop. I made my first batch a couple of weeks ago, a simple Coopers IPA kit just to get me started – so far it seems to be going ok, bottled it and will taste it later this week, although the SG of that one only went down to about 12 instead of 6 which I thought it would be.

If you used malt instead of the sugar that many kits call for, then your final gravity will be higher. But the real problem is with the 2nd batch – another kit , a Mexican Cerveza. It’s pretty much stopped fermenting after 3.5 days of good fermentation at about 24C (74F) and now has a good SG reading. But the brew looks and tastes pretty bloody terrible. Drawing off a sample it is incredibly cloudy (almost milky) and smells like vinegar. After sitting in a glass for about 15 mins it leaves a milky white residue at the bottom. The taste is not something I’d associate with

If it really smells like vinegar (acetic acid), then it probably is hosed. However, I think it would be unlikely to have reached that point after only 4 days. Beer will sometimes have a sour flavor and aroma if there is a lot of yeast in suspension – hopefully that’s what you’re experiencing. good beer either – chemical and bitter. I used a thing called Brew Shield here in Australia which is a peroxide steriliser.

I don’t know of anywhere other than Australia that this sanitizer (or even peroxide) is used. So a couple of questions- 1. What’s wrong with the brew – big time infection?  

Wait at least a week or two for the beer to clear – then try it again. 2. Is H202 ok as a sanitiser? (I’d normally use bleach but my current abode is on rainwater which is no good for rinsing)

I wouldn’t use H2O2 as some problems have been reported: http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue4.6/miller.html If you can get some, try either Iodophor or StarSan sanitizers. Both are very effective and no-rinse. If your water is no good for rinsing, then can I assume that you are boiling all of your brewing water? I hope so. 3. What exactly should the brew taste like after primary fermentation? Even my 1st batch tasted quite bitter and probably not something I could drink a lot of.

Assuming the yeast has mostly dropped, then it should taste like beer. If it doesn’t clear on it’s own after a week, consider fining it. So should I just dump this batch and try again? I’d rather not waste bottles on it if it isn’t going to be drinkable.

No, again, wait it out a bit longer.

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3. What exactly should the brew taste like after primary fermentation? Even my 1st batch tasted quite bitter and probably not something I could drink a lot of.

The only way for you to know this it to taste every batch and learn to associate.  I’ve made 9 batches, and all of my beer tastes bloody awful to me up until it gets carbonated.  Still training my taste buds I guess.  My beers have tasted either way too sweet or way too hopped, but by the time they’ve been kegged and aged a few weeks they always taste fine.  Now I don’t know about a vinegar taste… but other more experienced brewers certainly will.

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