Brewing Master

Question:

Before I got ahold of some lactic acid, I used vinegar to do pH adjustments.  The (typically) small amount needed doesn’t have detrimental any affect on beer flavor.         ——-Denny – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  Dan, as you guessed, I will be brewing my first bock on Saturday. My tap water in Columbus, OH is drawn from a river.  Here’s the water analysis averaged over a year: Ca 50, Mg 8, Cl 57, Na 79, Carbonate 50, SO4 146  pH 7.9 For the pale lagers I brewed recently I used 90% distilled with 10% tap water. For this bock however, I would like to approximate typical  Munich water profile and the local stuff is the opposite.  I’m on the low side for Ca and CaCO3, and high in Cl, Na, and SO4 (where Munich is low). I was planning to again use 90% distilled to dilute down the Cl, Na, and SO4.  Of course this will lower my Ca and CaCO3 too so I would then increase those back up with the chalk. I have read that I should also adjust my sparge water pH with phosporic acid if I use my tap water and the same would apply for my treated water as it will end up with a pH of 8 after dilution and subsequent addition of the CaCO3 . How critical is pH adjustment of the sparge water which I don’t think I will be able to do this time around ? B3 has a 10% phosporic acid solution for sale which I will order.  I think that I have a bottle of sanitizer that is a solution of  food grade phosphoric acid but I’m too chicken to use that in the sparge water since I didn’t buy it for that purpose and it has all kinds of POISON labels and such on it. Holy Mind Reading Active X, may contain less than 2% of cellulose, croscarmellose Sodium, Mineral oil, hydroxypropl methylcellulose, magnesium stearate, Polyethylene Glycol 3350, Gelatin, Crospovidone, Stearic Acid. Formulated to exclude artificial colors and flavors, preservatives, salt and sugar. Cellulose and hydroxypropl (sp?) methylcellulose are probably binders that help the pill stick together. Mineral oil is probably a wetting agent. Mg Stearate and Stearic acid (the Mg Stearate is the Magnesium salt of Stearate) are probaly lubricants to help push the pills out of the pill pusher. Stearate salts are typically used for a similar funstion in plastics. Polyethylene Glycol 3350 must be a custom, polymerized ethylene glycol. AKA polymerized antifreeze. The others, I don’t recognize. I guess it comes down to how much you’ll have to add. If you’re only going to add a few tablets, I wouldn’t worry. Why are you adding CaCO3?  I think the only beers that benefit from it are bocks and similar beers (I could be real wrong here). Certainly, low hopped beers only. Too much will mess with any significant hop additions. CaSO4 is used for accentuating hops. Burp, -Dan

Response:

JL, Your water is pretty soft and not very alkaline.Your residual alkalinity comes out at pH 5.7.  I really do not recommend treating your sparge water. If your want to lower your sulfate for brewing a "true" low sulphor Bock, then I guess you will need dilute your brew water with distilled and add salts to bring the calcium back up. Rather than using only calcium carbonate, use some calcium chloride also to maintain your current residual alkalinity balance. If I were you, I would use your local water as-is, and put up with a bit more assertive hop charactor due to the sulphates, perhaps compensating by reducing your bittering addition by a bit. But do what is fun for you. (For more discussion of residual alkalinity and mash pH, see Chapter 15) Good Brewing, — John Palmer How To Brew – the online book http://www.howtobrew.com (free, all rights reserved) Homepage: http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dan, as you guessed, I will be brewing my first bock on Saturday. My tap water in Columbus, OH is drawn from a river.  Here’s the water analysis averaged over a year: Ca 50, Mg 8, Cl 57, Na 79, Carbonate 50, SO4 146  pH 7.9 For the pale lagers I brewed recently I used 90% distilled with 10% tap water. For this bock however, I would like to approximate typical  Munich water profile and the local stuff is the opposite.  I’m on the low side for Ca and CaCO3, and high in Cl, Na, and SO4 (where Munich is low). I was planning to again use 90% distilled to dilute down the Cl, Na, and SO4.  Of course this will lower my Ca and CaCO3 too so I would then increase those back up with the chalk. I have read that I should also adjust my sparge water pH with phosporic acid if I use my tap water and the same would apply for my treated water as it will end up with a pH of 8 after dilution and subsequent addition of the CaCO3 . How critical is pH adjustment of the sparge water which I don’t think I will be able to do this time around ? B3 has a 10% phosporic acid solution for sale which I will order.  I think that I have a bottle of sanitizer that is a solution of  food grade phosphoric acid but I’m too chicken to use that in the sparge water since I didn’t buy it for that purpose and it has all kinds of POISON labels and such on it. Holy Mind Reading Active X, may contain less than 2% of cellulose, croscarmellose Sodium, Mineral oil, hydroxypropl methylcellulose, magnesium stearate, Polyethylene Glycol 3350, Gelatin, Crospovidone, Stearic Acid. Formulated to exclude artificial colors and flavors, preservatives, salt and sugar. Cellulose and hydroxypropl (sp?) methylcellulose are probably binders that help the pill stick together. Mineral oil is probably a wetting agent. Mg Stearate and Stearic acid (the Mg Stearate is the Magnesium salt of Stearate) are probaly lubricants to help push the pills out of the pill pusher. Stearate salts are typically used for a similar funstion in plastics. Polyethylene Glycol 3350 must be a custom, polymerized ethylene glycol. AKA polymerized antifreeze. The others, I don’t recognize. I guess it comes down to how much you’ll have to add. If you’re only going to add a few tablets, I wouldn’t worry. Why are you adding CaCO3?  I think the only beers that benefit from it are bocks and similar beers (I could be real wrong here). Certainly, low hopped beers only. Too much will mess with any significant hop additions. CaSO4 is used for accentuating hops. Burp, -Dan

Response:

The general rule of thumb is that tannins will be released from the mash if IT gets above about 5.5. Thus, many people adjust the sparge water to 5.5 and just worry about watching the gravity of the wort during the sparge (stop runnings at 1.010). Without adjusting the pH of the sparge water, double check the mash after mash-in and then watch it during the sparge. You’re looking for 5.2 to 5.5 (unless Bocks are different which I think not). You can use phosphoric, lactic or citric acid to adjust. If your recipe include dark malts, then you probably won’t need any adjustment to the mash. Burp, -Dan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dan, as you guessed, I will be brewing my first bock on Saturday. My tap water in Columbus, OH is drawn from a river.  Here’s the water analysis averaged over a year: Ca 50, Mg 8, Cl 57, Na 79, Carbonate 50, SO4 146  pH 7.9 For the pale lagers I brewed recently I used 90% distilled with 10% tap water. For this bock however, I would like to approximate typical  Munich water profile and the local stuff is the opposite.  I’m on the low side for Ca and CaCO3, and high in Cl, Na, and SO4 (where Munich is low). I was planning to again use 90% distilled to dilute down the Cl, Na, and SO4.  Of course this will lower my Ca and CaCO3 too so I would then increase those back up with the chalk. I have read that I should also adjust my sparge water pH with phosporic acid if I use my tap water and the same would apply for my treated water as it will end up with a pH of 8 after dilution and subsequent addition of the CaCO3 . How critical is pH adjustment of the sparge water which I don’t think I will be able to do this time around ? B3 has a 10% phosporic acid solution for sale which I will order.  I think that I have a bottle of sanitizer that is a solution of  food grade phosphoric acid but I’m too chicken to use that in the sparge water since I didn’t buy it for that purpose and it has all kinds of POISON labels and such on it. Holy Mind Reading Active X, may contain less than 2% of cellulose, croscarmellose Sodium, Mineral oil, hydroxypropl methylcellulose, magnesium stearate, Polyethylene Glycol 3350, Gelatin, Crospovidone, Stearic Acid. Formulated to exclude artificial colors and flavors, preservatives, salt and sugar. Cellulose and hydroxypropl (sp?) methylcellulose are probably binders that help the pill stick together. Mineral oil is probably a wetting agent. Mg Stearate and Stearic acid (the Mg Stearate is the Magnesium salt of Stearate) are probaly lubricants to help push the pills out of the pill pusher. Stearate salts are typically used for a similar funstion in plastics. Polyethylene Glycol 3350 must be a custom, polymerized ethylene glycol. AKA polymerized antifreeze. The others, I don’t recognize. I guess it comes down to how much you’ll have to add. If you’re only going to add a few tablets, I wouldn’t worry. Why are you adding CaCO3?  I think the only beers that benefit from it are bocks and similar beers (I could be real wrong here). Certainly, low hopped beers only. Too much will mess with any significant hop additions. CaSO4 is used for accentuating hops. Burp, -Dan

Response:

I have an 88% lactic acid solution.  Should I dilute this down prior to using? In what quantity and concentration is it normally used? Is it something where 1 drop changes the pH or larger amounts?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Before I got ahold of some lactic acid, I used vinegar to do pH adjustments.  The (typically) small amount needed doesn’t have detrimental any affect on beer flavor. ——-Denny  Dan, as you guessed, I will be brewing my first bock on Saturday. My tap water in Columbus, OH is drawn from a river.  Here’s the water analysis averaged over a year: Ca 50, Mg 8, Cl 57, Na 79, Carbonate 50, SO4 146  pH 7.9 For the pale lagers I brewed recently I used 90% distilled with 10% tap water. For this bock however, I would like to approximate typical  Munich water profile and the local stuff is the opposite.  I’m on the low side for Ca and CaCO3, and high in Cl, Na, and SO4 (where Munich is low). I was planning to again use 90% distilled to dilute down the Cl, Na, and SO4.  Of course this will lower my Ca and CaCO3 too so I would then increase those back up with the chalk. I have read that I should also adjust my sparge water pH with phosporic acid if I use my tap water and the same would apply for my treated water as it will end up with a pH of 8 after dilution and subsequent addition of the CaCO3 . How critical is pH adjustment of the sparge water which I don’t think I will be able to do this time around ? B3 has a 10% phosporic acid solution for sale which I will order.  I think that I have a bottle of sanitizer that is a solution of  food grade phosphoric acid but I’m too chicken to use that in the sparge water since I didn’t buy it for that purpose and it has all kinds of POISON labels and such on it. Holy Mind Reading Active X, may contain less than 2% of cellulose, croscarmellose Sodium, Mineral oil, hydroxypropl methylcellulose, magnesium stearate, Polyethylene Glycol 3350, Gelatin, Crospovidone, Stearic Acid. Formulated to exclude artificial colors and flavors, preservatives, salt and sugar. Cellulose and hydroxypropl (sp?) methylcellulose are probably binders that help the pill stick together. Mineral oil is probably a wetting agent. Mg Stearate and Stearic acid (the Mg Stearate is the Magnesium salt of Stearate) are probaly lubricants to help push the pills out of the pill pusher. Stearate salts are typically used for a similar funstion in plastics. Polyethylene Glycol 3350 must be a custom, polymerized ethylene glycol. AKA polymerized antifreeze. The others, I don’t recognize. I guess it comes down to how much you’ll have to add. If you’re only going to add a few tablets, I wouldn’t worry. Why are you adding CaCO3?  I think the only beers that benefit from it are bocks and similar beers (I could be real wrong here). Certainly, low hopped beers only. Too much will mess with any significant hop additions. CaSO4 is used for accentuating hops. Burp, -Dan

Response:

As a semi-newbie I am trying to progress into the finer aspects of brewing.  At first I concentrated on sanitation and the basics of brewing.  After a few batches I ventured the all grain process and concepts of diastase, along with the aspects of yeast and the role of fermentation.  Now I’m wanting to duplicate different water profiles. With the information I have I think I can grasp the ideas of salts, hardness, NO3, pH etc…  I have a question concerning Calcium Carbonate and Potassium Chloride.  Where can I get a good source of precipitated chalk (CaCO3 total – temp or permanent hardness) and Potassium Chloride?  Ex: Epsom Salt provides a good source of Mg & SO4. —–ActiveX

Response:

The better brew shops will carry chalk (CaCo3). The worse ones carry "Brewer’s Salt’s" which are a 67:33 mix of Gypsum and chalk. I haven’t seen any references spend any time on Potassium in brewing water. Thus, I’ve never looked for it. I use the Epsom salts for the non-Ca based sulfates. Burp, -Dan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a semi-newbie I am trying to progress into the finer aspects of brewing.  At first I concentrated on sanitation and the basics of brewing.  After a few batches I ventured the all grain process and concepts of diastase, along with the aspects of yeast and the role of fermentation.  Now I’m wanting to duplicate different water profiles. With the information I have I think I can grasp the ideas of salts, hardness, NO3, pH etc…  I have a question concerning Calcium Carbonate and Potassium Chloride.  Where can I get a good source of precipitated chalk (CaCO3 total – temp or permanent hardness) and Potassium Chloride?  Ex: Epsom Salt provides a good source of Mg & SO4. —–ActiveX

Response:

Thanks for the info Dan. Potassium chloride is another source of chlorides, other than sodium chloride, which can be more accurately and constantly dispensed in conjunction with small amounts of sodium chloride – for sodium content.  From what I’ve read, it is more forgiving than canning or table salt since larger quantities are used. —–ActiveX

| The better brew shops will carry chalk (CaCo3). The worse ones carry | "Brewer’s Salt’s" which are a 67:33 mix of Gypsum and chalk. | | I haven’t seen any references spend any time on Potassium in brewing water. | Thus, I’ve never looked for it. I use the Epsom salts for the non-Ca based | sulfates. | | Burp, | -Dan | |

| As a semi-newbie I am trying to progress into the finer aspects of | brewing.  At first I concentrated on sanitation and the basics of | brewing.  After a few batches I ventured the all grain process and | concepts of diastase, along with the aspects of yeast and the role of | fermentation.  Now I’m wanting to duplicate different water profiles. | | With the information I have I think I can grasp the ideas of salts, | hardness, NO3, pH etc…  I have a question concerning Calcium | Carbonate and Potassium Chloride.  Where can I get a good source of | precipitated chalk (CaCO3 total – temp or permanent hardness) and | Potassium Chloride?  Ex: Epsom Salt provides a good source of Mg & | SO4. | | —–ActiveX | |

Response:

Where can I get a good source of precipitated chalk (CaCO3 total – temp or permanent hardness) and Potassium Chloride?  Ex: Epsom Salt provides a good source of Mg & SO4.

Any homebrew shop will carry chalk. For Potassium Chloride, check out any health food or vitamin shop, probably even large pharmacies. Here is one example: http://shop.store.yahoo.com/vitaglo/1450.html

Response:

Holy Mind Reading Active X, I was desparately trying to avoid a trip across town for food grade chalk from the local shop.  Anyone know if I can use crushed up Calcium 600 tablets? Each tablet contains 600 mg of Calcium Carbonate with most of the balance 1400 mg being maltodextrin.  This accounts for 98+% of the tablet.  The balance ingridients from the label are as follows: may contain less than 2% of cellulose, croscarmellose Sodium, Mineral oil, hydroxypropl methylcellulose, magnesium stearate, Polyethylene Glycol 3350, Gelatin, Crospovidone, Stearic Acid. Formulated to exclude artificial colors and flavors, preservatives, salt and sugar. I know the maltodextrin won’t hurt but anyone have any idea on the other ingredients?  Someone else suggested that the tablets could be buffered in such a way that it would not have the same effect that adding chalk.  To obtain the profile I want I would be crushing up 7 tablets. Anyone?  Buehler? If I wait to get the chalk from the brewstore on Saturday, it will throw my hole brew schedule off. I weighed the tablets which appear to be 2000 mg each.  At least 98% of this is USP chalk + maltodextrin.  That leaves 2% or about 40 mg per tablet of the "other" ingredients mentioned above.  Any thoughts? What about tums or CaCO3 antacid which presumably would not be buffered since their job is to reduce stomach acid?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a semi-newbie I am trying to progress into the finer aspects of brewing.  At first I concentrated on sanitation and the basics of brewing.  After a few batches I ventured the all grain process and concepts of diastase, along with the aspects of yeast and the role of fermentation.  Now I’m wanting to duplicate different water profiles. With the information I have I think I can grasp the ideas of salts, hardness, NO3, pH etc…  I have a question concerning Calcium Carbonate and Potassium Chloride.  Where can I get a good source of precipitated chalk (CaCO3 total – temp or permanent hardness) and Potassium Chloride?  Ex: Epsom Salt provides a good source of Mg & SO4. —–ActiveX

Response:

Holy Mind Reading Active X, may contain less than 2% of cellulose, croscarmellose Sodium, Mineral oil, hydroxypropl methylcellulose, magnesium stearate, Polyethylene Glycol 3350, Gelatin, Crospovidone, Stearic Acid. Formulated to exclude artificial colors and flavors, preservatives, salt and sugar.

Cellulose and hydroxypropl (sp?) methylcellulose are probably binders that help the pill stick together. Mineral oil is probably a wetting agent. Mg Stearate and Stearic acid (the Mg Stearate is the Magnesium salt of Stearate) are probaly lubricants to help push the pills out of the pill pusher. Stearate salts are typically used for a similar funstion in plastics. Polyethylene Glycol 3350 must be a custom, polymerized ethylene glycol. AKA polymerized antifreeze. The others, I don’t recognize. I guess it comes down to how much you’ll have to add. If you’re only going to add a few tablets, I wouldn’t worry. Why are you adding CaCO3?  I think the only beers that benefit from it are bocks and similar beers (I could be real wrong here). Certainly, low hopped beers only. Too much will mess with any significant hop additions. CaSO4 is used for accentuating hops. Burp, -Dan

Response:

 Dan, as you guessed, I will be brewing my first bock on Saturday. My tap water in Columbus, OH is drawn from a river.  Here’s the water analysis averaged over a year: Ca 50, Mg 8, Cl 57, Na 79, Carbonate 50, SO4 146  pH 7.9 For the pale lagers I brewed recently I used 90% distilled with 10% tap water. For this bock however, I would like to approximate typical  Munich water profile and the local stuff is the opposite.  I’m on the low side for Ca and CaCO3, and high in Cl, Na, and SO4 (where Munich is low). I was planning to again use 90% distilled to dilute down the Cl, Na, and SO4.  Of course this will lower my Ca and CaCO3 too so I would then increase those back up with the chalk. I have read that I should also adjust my sparge water pH with phosporic acid if I use my tap water and the same would apply for my treated water as it will end up with a pH of 8 after dilution and subsequent addition of the CaCO3 . How critical is pH adjustment of the sparge water which I don’t think I will be able to do this time around ? B3 has a 10% phosporic acid solution for sale which I will order.  I think that I have a bottle of sanitizer that is a solution of  food grade phosphoric acid but I’m too chicken to use that in the sparge water since I didn’t buy it for that purpose and it has all kinds of POISON labels and such on it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Holy Mind Reading Active X, may contain less than 2% of cellulose, croscarmellose Sodium, Mineral oil, hydroxypropl methylcellulose, magnesium stearate, Polyethylene Glycol 3350, Gelatin, Crospovidone, Stearic Acid. Formulated to exclude artificial colors and flavors, preservatives, salt and sugar. Cellulose and hydroxypropl (sp?) methylcellulose are probably binders that help the pill stick together. Mineral oil is probably a wetting agent. Mg Stearate and Stearic acid (the Mg Stearate is the Magnesium salt of Stearate) are probaly lubricants to help push the pills out of the pill pusher. Stearate salts are typically used for a similar funstion in plastics. Polyethylene Glycol 3350 must be a custom, polymerized ethylene glycol. AKA polymerized antifreeze. The others, I don’t recognize. I guess it comes down to how much you’ll have to add. If you’re only going to add a few tablets, I wouldn’t worry. Why are you adding CaCO3?  I think the only beers that benefit from it are bocks and similar beers (I could be real wrong here). Certainly, low hopped beers only. Too much will mess with any significant hop additions. CaSO4 is used for accentuating hops. Burp, -Dan

Response: