Brewing Master

Question:

I have heard the argument that pouring off the liquid in your starter is a bad idea, because you are selecting only the most flocculent yeast for your fermentation.  It made sense to me, so I never pour off the liquid. Re: OG for your starter, I hear a lot that it’s better to make a lighter OG starter.  On their website, Wyeast recommends 1.020 – 30 for a starter. Greg Noonan says that it’s best to make your starter as close in composition as possible to that wort it will be pitched into.  That makes the most sense to me. My recent habit, since I bought some Erlenmeyer flasks, has been to pitch the pack into 300 ml wort, then add it to 600 ml more after a day or so. Keep it well aerated and well agitated the whole time.  Seems to be a good amount of yeast. I would step yours up once more, with another pint or two, depending on when you’ll be brewing. Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have made starters before, but I’ve always wondered something.  If I want to "step up" a starter, do I first decant the liquid already in the starter (thus pouring off some of the yeast in suspension) or do I make a starter of a higher OG to account for the fact that it will be diluted when poured into the beer that now exists in the starter that is already going? See…I made a starter of 2pints + 3tbsp of DME (about 1.040) and mixed it with a swollen pack of Wyest 2124 Bohemian Lager.  Now, since this is a lager and I really want it to take off I want to step up the the amount at least one more time.  The current starter has fermented out and I want to do this properly.  What do I do?  Thanks. -dan

Response:

If you can crash chill, you can decant without any problems.I typically crash chill at least once in the process (to reduce the amount of liquid I have to carry over). Good luck, Dan Cole

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How long, and at what temp?  Do you wait until it’s clear? Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you can crash chill, you can decant without any problems.I typically crash chill at least once in the process (to reduce the amount of liquid I have to carry over). Good luck, Dan Cole

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Since the temp drop is so dramatic and drops out all the yeast, I don’t have a specific time. I would say 35F (beer fridge temp) for 24+ hours. Good luck, Dan Cole

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: If you can crash chill, you can decant without any problems.I : typically crash chill at least once in the process (to reduce the : amount of liquid I have to carry over). I do it too.  Sometimes more than once per starter depending on how many times I refresh the wort.  At the very least I do it last. The day before brew day I crash chill (refrigerator) for about 24 hours, removing it from the refrigerator a few hours before pitching. The yeast cake is pretty compact and decanting most of the liquid is easy.  I then refresh with some of the actual wort going into the fermenter and let it wake up for 30-60 minutes, then pitch. Some people may object to the metabolic changes that chilling causes, like reduction of glycolic reserves, potential autolysis, hibernation and sporulation factors – whatever.  The proof is in the pudding, as they say.  All the theoretical considerations are irrelevant, even if true, unless they affect the quality of the brew.  YOU decide on the quality of your brew.  I’ve had great beers brewed with horrible technique, and crap brewed perfectly.  In the end you do what works for you, so try lots of different things. Cheers! Domenick Venezia Venezia & Company, LLC Maker of PrimeTab (206) 782-1152  phone (206) 782-6766  fax orders demonick at zgi dot com FREE PrimeTab SAMPLES! Enough for three 5 gallon batches. Fax, phone, or email: name, shipping address (no P.O.B.) and phone number. (I won’t call. It’s for UPS in case of delivery problems). Sorry, lower 48 only.

Response:

I have made starters before, but I’ve always wondered something.  If I want to "step up" a starter, do I first decant the liquid already in the starter (thus pouring off some of the yeast in suspension) or do I make a starter of a higher OG to account for the fact that it will be diluted when poured into the beer that now exists in the starter that is already going? See…I made a starter of 2pints + 3tbsp of DME (about 1.040) and mixed it with a swollen pack of Wyest 2124 Bohemian Lager.  Now, since this is a lager and I really want it to take off I want to step up the the amount at least one more time.  The current starter has fermented out and I want to do this properly.  What do I do?  Thanks. -dan

Response:

as long as we are on the subject, can anyone describe the process (if there is one) of recovering and revitalizing the yeast from the remains of the primary after I move the brew to the secondary? I would assume that I could store it in a vial for a period in the fridg.

Well, the lazybrewers way of doing it works just fine: rack the beer into secondary, leaving the trub and a little liquid behind. Pitch the new fresh wort onto that sediment. What helps immensely here is filtering or siphoning the wort from the kettle every time so your primary is clear and free of cold break & hop bits, so your trub ends up being just a thin layer of clean sediment. You can get three uses out of one vial of yeast, easy. If you want to store & culture the yeast, there is a "yeast washing" document around somewhere. ben

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as long as we are on the subject, can anyone describe the process (if there is one) of recovering and revitalizing the yeast from the remains of the primary after I move the brew to the secondary? I would assume that I could store it in a vial for a period in the fridg.

I’ll give you my method. No idea if it worked, as it was the first time I tried it. Brewed pilsner. Sanitized bottle and cap and funnel. Poured funk into bottle. Shake, let settle, refrigerate. Shake every couple of days. Vigorous shaking. Around ten days later, there is a faintly discernable line. I think the bottom is bad stuff, so shake just enough to get top layer into suspension. Pour into new fermenter, reserving and disposing of funk. Fermentation took off like a rocket. No idea about infection, taste, or anything. — George Howell     "I ride for the same reason dogs stick their head out

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rec.crafts.brewing: If you want to store & culture the yeast, there is a "yeast washing" document around somewhere.

http://hbd.org/carboy/newslet/ferm1201.htm — [Apparent Rennerian 567.7, 95.9] Al – rukbat at optonline dot net

Response:

How many people use starters as opposed to just pitching directly from the container?  Also, what is the most common way to make a starter?

In recent batches I’ve done both.  Whenever possible, I use a starter, but sometimes my schedule doesn’t permit it.  At such times I always use a jumbo smack-pack (Wyest XL).  In the past I’ve used the smaller smack packs without starter — the jumbo ones make a big difference. I went overboard with my last starter.  Pitched a smack pack (jumbo) into about three pints of wort.  When I pitched this into my batch, fermentation took off like a rocket; had to use a blowoff tube for the first time in years.  (Actually I did two batches in the same day, two yeasts, both with the 3-pint starter; both were aggressively fermenting within 18 hours). Next batch I plan to follow Mike Uchima’s one-flask method (if I can get my hands on a good flask): http://hbd.org/~uchima/yeaststart/yeaststart.html I also aerate with pure oxygen, which is an essential part of the equation (good aeration, I mean, not my particular method).  I think starters are definitely worth it. — Eric J. Scheidler — Oak Park, Illinois — "The book, like the bicycle, is a perfect form." – Jacques Barzun, From Dawn to Decadence

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How many people use starters as opposed to just pitching directly from the container?  Also, what is the most common way to make a starter? Stuart

Starters are a very good thing, especially for liquid yeasts, and are mandatory if you get into yeast ranching.  Here are some articles and a google search on yeast and beer will give you more: http://www.brewery.org/brewery/Library.html#Yeast Also, the best starter is the yeast cake from your last batch of beer, as long as the next batch is similar in style to the last batch.  Time your brewing so that when the last batch is ready to rack, the next batch is ready for the fermenter.  You can use either the primary or secondary yeast cakes (religious wars have been fought over which is better). Bob Scott — Posted with Mozilla running on Linux.  Certified MS virus free!

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I know some people like to use Pyrex/Kimax flasks, which sounds like a good idea to me.  I just don’t have any yet.

I use a 1 liter flask with my starters.  Its very convenient.  You can go directly from the flame to a bath of cool water.  You only need to sanitize a stopper and airlock.  The whole process takes about 30 minutes, including a 15 minute boil.

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When using liquid yeast from Wyeast or Whitelabs I _always_ make a starter. It is absolutely not much work (20 min) and my worts normally start fermenting vigorously after a maximum of 12 hrs, which is good and gives nasties less chance to take over the wort for their evil and purposes, before the yeast is ready. cheers Gregor – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many people use starters as opposed to just pitching directly from the container?  Also, what is the most common way to make a starter? Stuart

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How many people use starters as opposed to just pitching directly from the container?  Also, what is the most common way to make a starter?

I use starters.  I use DME and water, boiled and cooled, and I transfer them to a wine bottle with an airlock affixed.  I know some people like to use Pyrex/Kimax flasks, which sounds like a good idea to me.  I just don’t have any yet. JeffMo "You can’t have freedom OF religion, unless you also have freedom FROM the next guy’s religion." — JeffMo

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as long as we are on the subject, can anyone describe the process (if there is one) of recovering and revitalizing the yeast from the remains of the primary after I move the brew to the secondary? I would assume that I could store it in a vial for a period in the fridg. ~Rick

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many people use starters as opposed to just pitching directly from the container?  Also, what is the most common way to make a starter? Stuart

Response:

How many people use starters as opposed to just pitching directly from the container?  Also, what is the most common way to make a starter? Stuart

Response:

How many people use starters as opposed to just pitching directly from the container?  Also, what is the most common way to make a starter? Stuart

I just recently started using starters. I use pitchable tubes, but was kinda bored one day, and knew I would brew in a few days, so I made up a starter. I’m not super religious about it, but I will certainly do it in the future if I can. How? There are many methods, this is mine: Boil one quart of water with about 3/4 cup DME for a while. Fifteen minutes. Cover and let it cool until ~75-80 degrees. Pour into presanitized half gallon container. We usually have tons of juice containers, so I use one of them. Throw in the yeast. Cap it. Shake the hell out of it. Back off the cap about one turn. Cover with plastic baggie and rubber band. I do this about two days before brewing. On pitching day, remove rubber band and baggie, close cap tightly. Shake the hell out of the starter, and pour into fermenter (through a sanitized funnel). My sanitation isn’t as good as some in here will tell you, but it has worked so far. — George Howell     "I ride for the same reason dogs stick their head out

Response:

I use starters most of the time.  The late sarts can lead to infections. White labs states: How do I make a "starter"? A "starter" can be any volume of wort that you add yeast to before using it to make your beer.  The yeast get active in this smaller volume, usually for 1-2 days, and then can be added to 5 gallons of beer, or 10 gallons, or whatever size your brewing.  This can be a good way to "proof" the yeast, and also when making high gravity beers. White Labs recommends on their label to make a starter "if the gravity is over 1.070, if the yeast is past its "best before" date, or if a faster start is desired". Procedure: Make up a 1-2 pint wort, gravity ~1.040, hopped as normal.  Boil for 30 minutes, cool to room temperature. Pitch one vial, shake well and let sit for 1-2 days.  Little to no activity will be seen in the starter, since this is a very small volume compared to the quantity of yeast pitched.  The yeast in a starter may be done within a couple of hours. But a layer of yeast should be at the bottom after 1-2 days. The wort on top of the yeast can be either decanted of the top, or left in and pitched with the whole volume. Most pitch the whole volume, but if the starter gets to the point of 2 liters for 5 gallons, then we recommend decanting the wort off the yeast. Typical Starter Volumes for 5 gallons: To activate the yeast:    1 pint To regenerate expired yeast (there will be living yeast in the package for ~1 year): 2 pints To brew a high gravity beer: 2 pints To brew a lager beer, starting fermentation 50-55F: 4 pints

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Is there actually a technical difference between a starter and hydrating the yeast?

Yes. Hydrating doesn’t have sugars, so the yeast wouldn’t reproduce, right.  

Yep, that’s correct.  Rehydration is simply… well… rehydration. Adding water back to yeast cells which have been dried, to revive them. It only takes a few minutes. A starter is intended to get the yeast cells’ metabolism cranking, and also provide a friendly environment where the yeast can reproduce. Should you just toss yeast into a "starter" which has warm water and a form of sugar? Should you hydrate and then add the hydrated yeast to the starter?

A starter is generally not needed with dry yeast.  Using an extra packet or two is easier, and still reasonable from a cost perspective since dry yeast is relatively cheap. Thanks. E. O’Daniel IDAHO!

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There is usually no need for a starter with dry yeast.  Just rehydrate and pitch. Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there actually a technical difference between a starter and hydrating the yeast? Hydrating doesn’t have sugars, so the yeast wouldn’t reproduce, right.  Should you just toss yeast into a "starter" which has warm water and a form of sugar? Should you hydrate and then add the hydrated yeast to the starter? Thanks. E. O’Daniel IDAHO!

Response:

Is there actually a technical difference between a starter and hydrating the yeast? Hydrating doesn’t have sugars, so the yeast wouldn’t reproduce, right.  Should you just toss yeast into a "starter" which has warm water and a form of sugar? Should you hydrate and then add the hydrated yeast to the starter? Thanks. E. O’Daniel IDAHO!

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Hey there yeast fanciers, I have just begun making yeast starters for my brews (canned kits for now). The book I have doesn’t mention much about starters. I found the following recipe somewhere on the net 600ml   water ( ~1 pint ) 30g     dried malt extract Method Boil the water, add the malt, boil some more, seal in a sanitised container. Cool to about 20degC, pour into a sanitised tallie (750ml brown bottle), add yeast, seal with a rubber stopper and an airlock. The questions Is this a reasonable recipe for a starter or am I off the mark? Do starters generally require regular swirling? If so, would it be worth making a magnetic stirrer? Do I need to pump superfine filtered air into the starter in order to keep yeast cell reproduction at a high level or is this a waste of time as the starter is only going for 48 hrs or so? Cheers, Lance

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i have been using a stirrer that i got on ebay for $10 it works great, as to areation just shake the heck out of the tallie(sealed of course) and you should be good to go. i think you’ll like the results. jerry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey there yeast fanciers, I have just begun making yeast starters for my brews (canned kits for now). The book I have doesn’t mention much about starters. I found the following recipe somewhere on the net 600ml water ( ~1 pint ) 30g dried malt extract Method Boil the water, add the malt, boil some more, seal in a sanitised container. Cool to about 20degC, pour into a sanitised tallie (750ml brown bottle), add yeast, seal with a rubber stopper and an airlock. The questions Is this a reasonable recipe for a starter or am I off the mark? Do starters generally require regular swirling? If so, would it be worth making a magnetic stirrer? Do I need to pump superfine filtered air into the starter in order to keep yeast cell reproduction at a high level or is this a waste of time as the starter is only going for 48 hrs or so? Cheers, Lance

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