Brewing Master

Question:

Well, I wasted almost an entire Sunday brewing my first mash yesterday – what a nightmare!  First off, let me say that I’m not yet capable of doing a full 5 gallon boil yet.  My 8 gallon stainless steel turkey fryer hadn’t yet arrived, but I had the mashing equipment – so I made the fateful decision to do a "partial" mash with what I had, and add in some extract to get the gravity up. I ended up going on the cheap, and bought the mash equipment based on the uninsulated 5 gallon buckets, where you’re supposed to put on this insulation jacket on the mash bucket during the mash, and then put it on the sparge water tank to maintain the temp there.  This is not a good system, the buckets lose so much heat that you can’t maintain the necessary temps

Got any old blankets, towels, etc.?  I mash in a pot, and wrap it in towels and an old blanket to hold in the heat; works pretty good.  When sparging, I wrap both the latuer bucket and the sparge water bucket in more towels. Heck, you need some towels on hand anyway to clean up the mess after you’re done brewing… so they even serve a dual purpose! – I kept adding 165F water to the mash tank, but it never got above 142F!  

If you need to tweak the temperature after mashing in, you can add a small amount of hotter (e.g. near-boiling) water; just make sure you stir well to even out the temperature differences.  It takes a lot less hot water to bring the temp up if the water is 200F, as opposed to 165F! So here I am, adding more and more water to the mash, and starting to realize that I won’t be able to put all the wort into my boil vessel (16 quart).  In order to get the temp up, I had to start pulling about quart-sized increments, heat it separately on the stove, and add it back to the mash tank.  I must have pulled between 18 and 20 of those before I could get the mash tank up to 158F.  Was this in a sense a "decoction" mash?

Sort of… IIRC, in a "true" decoction, the part that is pulled is held at 158F for a few minutes, to ensure it has converted before it is heated further. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is the recipe (I called it a "Kitchen Sink Oktoberfest" since it’s got one of everything in there…): 1 pound German Vienna 0.5 lb. German melanoidin 0.5 lb. German Light Crystal 0.25 lb. Belgian CaraPils 4 lbs. German 2-Row Pils —— and later, into the boil bucket: 2 lbs. St. Pat’s "Marie’s Munich" malt extract 1 lb. Laaglander Light dry malt extract —— 5/8 oz. Hallertauer Tradition pellets 6.0% (60 min.) 1 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh whole hops 5.0% (30 min.) 1/2 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% (30 min.) 1/2 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh whole hops 5.0% (15 min.) 1/2 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% (15 min.) 1 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% at flame out Yeah, I know, too much hops for style, but what can I say.. I like hops… So I did an iodine test after the mash step, and it didn’t turn black, so I figured most had converted okay.  I sparged with about 1.5 gallons of water at 170F (and cooling fast ,

If the iodine test indicated no starch, you’re probably fine.  Did you happen to take a gravity reading? Will this batch turn out okay, or will something with this misguided technique screw it up?  Has anyone else had a similar experience with their first mash?

I had other disasters with my first mash, mostly related to trying to sparge using a grain bag in my bottling bucket.  That batch turned out reasonably well. —

Response:

This begs another question: how do you pros out there separate the hop leaves and trub from the wort before getting it to the fermenter? Siphoning doesn’t appear to be an option with all the hops floating around, and I’ve read about whirlpooling too – but I’ve got multiple ounces of hop leaves in there that just make simple separation impossible.  Should I start straining out the hops, and then try to whirlpool?  Suggestions???

Sanitize a plastic scrubbie and put it on the end of your racking cane. Siphon the beer over and the leaf hops will act as your filter. If using pellet hops, just wait for them to settle after cooling ~15 min, and siphon to the fermenter being careful to leave behind the kettle trub. Cheers, Mike

Response:

I have a couple suggestions: I use the following website to figure out the temperature needed to reach my strike temperature: http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml And I’ve done about 7 all grain batches to date.  I’ve always siphoned, because I find it easier than other methods.  I just whirlpool the wort after the boil, then cool with a home-made copper wort chiller.  I’ve never had it plug up, but then on the other hand, I normally use hop pellets.  I end up leaving an inch or two of wort on the bottom of the pot, but I adjust for that by having enough in there to begin with to get my 5-1/2 gallons after siphoning. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I wasted almost an entire Sunday brewing my first mash yesterday – what a nightmare!  First off, let me say that I’m not yet capable of doing a full 5 gallon boil yet.  My 8 gallon stainless steel turkey fryer hadn’t yet arrived, but I had the mashing equipment – so I made the fateful decision to do a "partial" mash with what I had, and add in some extract to get the gravity up. I ended up going on the cheap, and bought the mash equipment based on the uninsulated 5 gallon buckets, where you’re supposed to put on this insulation jacket on the mash bucket during the mash, and then put it on the sparge water tank to maintain the temp there.  This is not a good system, the buckets lose so much heat that you can’t maintain the necessary temps – I kept adding 165F water to the mash tank, but it never got above 142F!  So here I am, adding more and more water to the mash, and starting to realize that I won’t be able to put all the wort into my boil vessel (16 quart).  In order to get the temp up, I had to start pulling about quart-sized increments, heat it separately on the stove, and add it back to the mash tank.  I must have pulled between 18 and 20 of those before I could get the mash tank up to 158F.  Was this in a sense a "decoction" mash? Here is the recipe (I called it a "Kitchen Sink Oktoberfest" since it’s got one of everything in there…): 1 pound German Vienna 0.5 lb. German melanoidin 0.5 lb. German Light Crystal 0.25 lb. Belgian CaraPils 4 lbs. German 2-Row Pils —— and later, into the boil bucket: 2 lbs. St. Pat’s "Marie’s Munich" malt extract 1 lb. Laaglander Light dry malt extract —— 5/8 oz. Hallertauer Tradition pellets 6.0% (60 min.) 1 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh whole hops 5.0% (30 min.) 1/2 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% (30 min.) 1/2 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh whole hops 5.0% (15 min.) 1/2 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% (15 min.) 1 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% at flame out Yeah, I know, too much hops for style, but what can I say.. I like hops… So I did an iodine test after the mash step, and it didn’t turn black, so I figured most had converted okay.  I sparged with about 1.5 gallons of water at 170F (and cooling fast , Will this batch turn out okay, or will something with this misguided technique screw it up?  Has anyone else had a similar experience with their first mash?

Response:

<snip And to answer your question, what you did was not a decoction mash. In a decoction, the grains and a little bit of the liquid are boiled. It sounds like you just heated just the liquid. And it looks like you heated nearly all of the liquid which, depending on the temp, will denature the enzymes. With each pull-out, I’d only heat that portion to about 161-163F, before returning it to the main mash.  Is that too high?  It was the only thing I could think to do at the time, and actually thought it was fairly inventive at the time.

Normally something like that has to be done – you can’t really try to post a question and wait two days for the answer to arrive. However already at 142F there are conversion of starch into sugar. Things doesn’t start to happen suddenly at a certain temperature. At 142F there is also some denaturation of the enzymes, the only thing that happens at higher temperatures is that the denaturation goes faster. Since it’s fermenting you obviously had some conversion. As for the reason you didn’t reach desired temperature poor insulation or temperature loss during liquid transfer may be the cause. An experiment you could do is to try to add 165F water to the empty tank and see what temperature you get. Normally the temperature drops somewhat (you have to correct for this in addition to the normal 15F drop due to the grist). You can also check that the temperature does not drop too drastically in one hour.   It seems to be fermenting okay.  I made about a 700 ml starter with Wyeast 2308, it was bubbling nicely at the time I pitched it.  What was weird was this morning there was some brown-colored Krausen on the surface, which is slowly being replaced by normal-looking white Krausen as the temp drops.  Could the brown stuff have been protein or something I’m not used to from the mashing process?

Frankly I don’t know why that is, but certainly it sounds like a pretty normal appearance. Just don’t worry about that. One other hassle I found with mashing: filtering out the gunk on the way to the fermenter.  I use a strainer inside a funnel with a fine mesh screen.  The strainer takes out the big chunks like the whole hop leaves, while the fine mesh catches the smaller particles.  I could only filter a little at a time, as the fine mesh was getting plugged with the protein or whatever.  This never happened using specialty grains to enhance malt extract batches. This begs another question: how do you pros out there separate the hop leaves and trub from the wort before getting it to the fermenter?

I don’t, except for avoiding hops to get into the primary. I don’t think the trub makes too much damage, at least not if you (like me) rack it to secondary when the primary is done. To strain out the hops and the whirlpool it should work, but that would require a sanitized settling tank (that is yet another sanitized bucket or whatever you use) and of course a sanitized siphon. This should be carried out with cooled wort so sanitation is important here.

Response:

<snip And to answer your question, what you did was not a decoction mash. In a decoction, the grains and a little bit of the liquid are boiled. It sounds like you just heated just the liquid. And it looks like you heated nearly all of the liquid which, depending on the temp, will denature the enzymes.

With each pull-out, I’d only heat that portion to about 161-163F, before returning it to the main mash.  Is that too high?  It was the only thing I could think to do at the time, and actually thought it was fairly inventive at the time. It seems to be fermenting okay.  I made about a 700 ml starter with Wyeast 2308, it was bubbling nicely at the time I pitched it.  What was weird was this morning there was some brown-colored Krausen on the surface, which is slowly being replaced by normal-looking white Krausen as the temp drops.  Could the brown stuff have been protein or something I’m not used to from the mashing process? One other hassle I found with mashing: filtering out the gunk on the way to the fermenter.  I use a strainer inside a funnel with a fine mesh screen.  The strainer takes out the big chunks like the whole hop leaves, while the fine mesh catches the smaller particles.  I could only filter a little at a time, as the fine mesh was getting plugged with the protein or whatever.  This never happened using specialty grains to enhance malt extract batches. This begs another question: how do you pros out there separate the hop leaves and trub from the wort before getting it to the fermenter? Siphoning doesn’t appear to be an option with all the hops floating around, and I’ve read about whirlpooling too – but I’ve got multiple ounces of hop leaves in there that just make simple separation impossible.  Should I start straining out the hops, and then try to whirlpool?  Suggestions??? Thanks for your help! Mark

Response:

Can you mash in your brewpot?  Thats what I do.  I use my double-bucket system for lautering only.  Luckily for me, my 20L pot fits into my oven, which helps prevent heat loss. To hit the target temperature range, I use 1L (a little more than 1 quart) of 170F water per pound of grain.  Keep both cold water & hot water available to adjust if needed & remember to stir well since there may be localized pockets of cold & hot areas, throwing off your temperature readings. A double bucket system is far from ideal, but it does work.  You will learn the ideosyncracies of your system & adjust.  I preheat my lauter tun before adding the mash by rinsing with hot water first, then adding some of the water before adding the mash.  This helps stabilize the temperature & helps prevent the grain bed from compacting too tightly. I personally keep my sparge water at about 180F, which keeps the mean temperature in the lauter tun closer to 160.  I also like to keep my electric tea kettle full of boiling water so I can adjust the temperature if need be. Kelvin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I wasted almost an entire Sunday brewing my first mash yesterday – what a nightmare!  First off, let me say that I’m not yet capable of doing a full 5 gallon boil yet.  My 8 gallon stainless steel turkey fryer hadn’t yet arrived, but I had the mashing equipment – so I made the fateful decision to do a "partial" mash with what I had, and add in some extract to get the gravity up. I ended up going on the cheap, and bought the mash equipment based on the uninsulated 5 gallon buckets, where you’re supposed to put on this insulation jacket on the mash bucket during the mash, and then put it on the sparge water tank to maintain the temp there.  This is not a good system, the buckets lose so much heat that you can’t maintain the necessary temps – I kept adding 165F water to the mash tank, but it never got above 142F!  So here I am, adding more and more water to the mash, and starting to realize that I won’t be able to put all the wort into my boil vessel (16 quart).  In order to get the temp up, I had to start pulling about quart-sized increments, heat it separately on the stove, and add it back to the mash tank.  I must have pulled between 18 and 20 of those before I could get the mash tank up to 158F.  Was this in a sense a "decoction" mash? Here is the recipe (I called it a "Kitchen Sink Oktoberfest" since it’s got one of everything in there…): 1 pound German Vienna 0.5 lb. German melanoidin 0.5 lb. German Light Crystal 0.25 lb. Belgian CaraPils 4 lbs. German 2-Row Pils —— and later, into the boil bucket: 2 lbs. St. Pat’s "Marie’s Munich" malt extract 1 lb. Laaglander Light dry malt extract —— 5/8 oz. Hallertauer Tradition pellets 6.0% (60 min.) 1 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh whole hops 5.0% (30 min.) 1/2 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% (30 min.) 1/2 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh whole hops 5.0% (15 min.) 1/2 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% (15 min.) 1 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% at flame out Yeah, I know, too much hops for style, but what can I say.. I like hops… So I did an iodine test after the mash step, and it didn’t turn black, so I figured most had converted okay.  I sparged with about 1.5 gallons of water at 170F (and cooling fast , Will this batch turn out okay, or will something with this misguided technique screw it up?  Has anyone else had a similar experience with their first mash?

Response:

Next time you undershoot your strike temperature, boost it with boiling water. Adding 165F water wont boost it enough before it gets too diluted. And to answer your question, what you did was not a decoction mash. In a decoction, the grains and a little bit of the liquid are boiled. It sounds like you just heated just the liquid. And it looks like you heated nearly all of the liquid which, depending on the temp, will denature the enzymes. But I suspect it would turn out fine. Was your extraction OK? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Well, I wasted almost an entire Sunday brewing my first mash yesterday – what a nightmare!  First off, let me say that I’m not yet capable of doing a full 5 gallon boil yet.  My 8 gallon stainless steel turkey fryer hadn’t yet arrived, but I had the mashing equipment – so I made the fateful decision to do a "partial" mash with what I had, and add in some extract to get the gravity up. I ended up going on the cheap, and bought the mash equipment based on the uninsulated 5 gallon buckets, where you’re supposed to put on this insulation jacket on the mash bucket during the mash, and then put it on the sparge water tank to maintain the temp there.  This is not a good system, the buckets lose so much heat that you can’t maintain the necessary temps – I kept adding 165F water to the mash tank, but it never got above 142F!  So here I am, adding more and more water to the mash, and starting to realize that I won’t be able to put all the wort into my boil vessel (16 quart).  In order to get the temp up, I had to start pulling about quart-sized increments, heat it separately on the stove, and add it back to the mash tank.  I must have pulled between 18 and 20 of those before I could get the mash tank up to 158F.  Was this in a sense a "decoction" mash? Here is the recipe (I called it a "Kitchen Sink Oktoberfest" since it’s got one of everything in there…): 1 pound German Vienna 0.5 lb. German melanoidin 0.5 lb. German Light Crystal 0.25 lb. Belgian CaraPils 4 lbs. German 2-Row Pils —— and later, into the boil bucket: 2 lbs. St. Pat’s "Marie’s Munich" malt extract 1 lb. Laaglander Light dry malt extract —— 5/8 oz. Hallertauer Tradition pellets 6.0% (60 min.) 1 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh whole hops 5.0% (30 min.) 1/2 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% (30 min.) 1/2 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh whole hops 5.0% (15 min.) 1/2 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% (15 min.) 1 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% at flame out Yeah, I know, too much hops for style, but what can I say.. I like hops… So I did an iodine test after the mash step, and it didn’t turn black, so I figured most had converted okay.  I sparged with about 1.5 gallons of water at 170F (and cooling fast , Will this batch turn out okay, or will something with this misguided technique screw it up?  Has anyone else had a similar experience with their first mash?

Response:

The thing is that some of the heat of the water is used to heat the grist. The water must always be hotter than the target temperature because the grist is cooler than that temperature.  170 works just fine for hitting 150. —  Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at http://www.listermann.com Take a look at the anti-telemarketer forum.  It is my new hobby! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Your beer should be fine.  Mashing is a very forgiving process.  Check out "Wanna Mash?" at www.listermann.com.  I suspect that your strike water was not hot enough to initially heat the grist to 150. How hot can you go before causing the mash to stop working (above 165F, right?)? I think you’re right though – I think my strike water was around 148F. That’s definitely the thing I’d do over again!  I think I would have it it with 170F water, and cooled it if necessary with room temp water. Living and learning, Mark

Response:

Your beer should be fine.  Mashing is a very forgiving process.  Check out "Wanna Mash?" at www.listermann.com.  I suspect that your strike water was not hot enough to initially heat the grist to 150.

How hot can you go before causing the mash to stop working (above 165F, right?)? I think you’re right though – I think my strike water was around 148F. That’s definitely the thing I’d do over again!  I think I would have it it with 170F water, and cooled it if necessary with room temp water. Living and learning, Mark

Response:

Your beer should be fine.  Mashing is a very forgiving process.  Check out "Wanna Mash?" at www.listermann.com.  I suspect that your strike water was not hot enough to initially heat the grist to 150. —  Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at http://www.listermann.com Take a look at the anti-telemarketer forum.  It is my new hobby! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I wasted almost an entire Sunday brewing my first mash yesterday – what a nightmare!  First off, let me say that I’m not yet capable of doing a full 5 gallon boil yet.  My 8 gallon stainless steel turkey fryer hadn’t yet arrived, but I had the mashing equipment – so I made the fateful decision to do a "partial" mash with what I had, and add in some extract to get the gravity up. I ended up going on the cheap, and bought the mash equipment based on the uninsulated 5 gallon buckets, where you’re supposed to put on this insulation jacket on the mash bucket during the mash, and then put it on the sparge water tank to maintain the temp there.  This is not a good system, the buckets lose so much heat that you can’t maintain the necessary temps – I kept adding 165F water to the mash tank, but it never got above 142F!  So here I am, adding more and more water to the mash, and starting to realize that I won’t be able to put all the wort into my boil vessel (16 quart).  In order to get the temp up, I had to start pulling about quart-sized increments, heat it separately on the stove, and add it back to the mash tank.  I must have pulled between 18 and 20 of those before I could get the mash tank up to 158F.  Was this in a sense a "decoction" mash? Here is the recipe (I called it a "Kitchen Sink Oktoberfest" since it’s got one of everything in there…): 1 pound German Vienna 0.5 lb. German melanoidin 0.5 lb. German Light Crystal 0.25 lb. Belgian CaraPils 4 lbs. German 2-Row Pils —— and later, into the boil bucket: 2 lbs. St. Pat’s "Marie’s Munich" malt extract 1 lb. Laaglander Light dry malt extract —— 5/8 oz. Hallertauer Tradition pellets 6.0% (60 min.) 1 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh whole hops 5.0% (30 min.) 1/2 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% (30 min.) 1/2 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh whole hops 5.0% (15 min.) 1/2 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% (15 min.) 1 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% at flame out Yeah, I know, too much hops for style, but what can I say.. I like hops… So I did an iodine test after the mash step, and it didn’t turn black, so I figured most had converted okay.  I sparged with about 1.5 gallons of water at 170F (and cooling fast , Will this batch turn out okay, or will something with this misguided technique screw it up?  Has anyone else had a similar experience with their first mash?

Response:

Well, I wasted almost an entire Sunday brewing my first mash yesterday – what a nightmare!  First off, let me say that I’m not yet capable of doing a full 5 gallon boil yet.  My 8 gallon stainless steel turkey fryer hadn’t yet arrived, but I had the mashing equipment – so I made the fateful decision to do a "partial" mash with what I had, and add in some extract to get the gravity up. I ended up going on the cheap, and bought the mash equipment based on the uninsulated 5 gallon buckets, where you’re supposed to put on this insulation jacket on the mash bucket during the mash, and then put it on the sparge water tank to maintain the temp there.  This is not a good system, the buckets lose so much heat that you can’t maintain the necessary temps – I kept adding 165F water to the mash tank, but it never got above 142F!  So here I am, adding more and more water to the mash, and starting to realize that I won’t be able to put all the wort into my boil vessel (16 quart).  In order to get the temp up, I had to start pulling about quart-sized increments, heat it separately on the stove, and add it back to the mash tank.  I must have pulled between 18 and 20 of those before I could get the mash tank up to 158F.  Was this in a sense a "decoction" mash? Here is the recipe (I called it a "Kitchen Sink Oktoberfest" since it’s got one of everything in there…): 1 pound German Vienna 0.5 lb. German melanoidin 0.5 lb. German Light Crystal 0.25 lb. Belgian CaraPils 4 lbs. German 2-Row Pils —— and later, into the boil bucket: 2 lbs. St. Pat’s "Marie’s Munich" malt extract 1 lb. Laaglander Light dry malt extract —— 5/8 oz. Hallertauer Tradition pellets 6.0% (60 min.) 1 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh whole hops 5.0% (30 min.) 1/2 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% (30 min.) 1/2 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh whole hops 5.0% (15 min.) 1/2 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% (15 min.) 1 oz. Czech Saaz whole hops 2.8% at flame out Yeah, I know, too much hops for style, but what can I say.. I like hops… So I did an iodine test after the mash step, and it didn’t turn black, so I figured most had converted okay.  I sparged with about 1.5 gallons of water at 170F (and cooling fast , Will this batch turn out okay, or will something with this misguided technique screw it up?  Has anyone else had a similar experience with their first mash?

Response: