Brewing Master

Question:

| [...skipping to second batch...] | | So, now we come to the second batch… | | 2 1/2 lbs Pale Ale malt | 1/2 lb 80L Crystal | 1/2 lb 40L Crystal | 1 1/4 lb Munton & Fison light DME | 3.3 lb light extract syrup | 1 oz Cascade (5.0 % alpha) boil – 60 mins | 1 oz Fuggles (5.1 % alpha) boil – 30 mins | 1 oz Fuggles – finish | 1 tsp irish moss | 2 pkg EDME yeast | | Same mashing specifications | | [...] | | Second, I tasted some at bottling time, and from everything I’ve read, | this beer has a definate astringency to it.  According to Miller, this | is probably caused by: | | 1) Letting Hops sit too long in hot wort. | | Likely cause, IMHO, but not from the finishing hops as you suggest. | First of all, you have over 12.5 AAUs of hops listed above, which | is a hefty portion to begin with. | I’m still confused about AAUs, HBUs, and IBUs.  How did you calculate the 12.5 AAUs?  I thought it would be less than 10.1 AAUs since I added the fuggles at only 30 minutes to go in the boil. | Beyond that, there’s lots to consider: | |   Were you using leaf or pelletized hops?  Due to their pulverized |   nature, pelletized hops require less time in the boil to achieve |   isomerization.  Miller says half the time, approximately. I used pelletized hops.  I assumed that they would only add 10 % additional AAU than whole hops. | |   How did you cool your wort?  Those "cooking" times for hops assume |   fairly rapid chilling times from the boil, say 20 minutes tops. | The method I have been using is to freeze hot water in sanitized containers to make up the difference of water from the boil ( I use a 5 gal. boiler) and siphon hot wort into a bucket with ice and icewater to cool it quickly. Since I’m using pelletized hops, I don’t strain or sparge the wort to minimize oxidation, and I try to siphon quickly and quietly.  Then I let the trub settle and siphon again to a carboy for fermentation and pitch. |   What’s the sulfate ion level in your water.  High levels of sulfate, |   especially with high hop rates, can lead to a dry astringent taste. |   I learned that myself–the hard way. | Don’t know.  I have a well, and never have had the water analyzed.  It’s a relatively deep well, and the only treatment the water undergos is a sediment filter. | | Good luck and happy brewing. | | –Tom G. Thanks for the help, and appreciate any further follow-up! Cheers, Bryan Bryan Cronk   BNR, Inc., Research Triangle Park, NC   (919) 991-7598 (W)   (919) 528-3375 (H) I have a tough enough time speaking for myself, let alone anyone else.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Second, I tasted some at bottling time, and from everything I’ve read, this beer has a definate astringency to it.  According to Miller, this is probably caused by: 1) Letting Hops sit too long in hot wort.  Well, I did let my finishing hops sit in the boiler for about 10 minutes after I took it off the heat, but Miller himself recommends 15 minutes, so I’m not sure that had anything to do with it. 2) High PH in sparge water.  On the recommendation of my brew shop, I have been using Lactic acid (17%) to adjust my sparge water.  I thought that if anything, my sparge PH was too LOW.  Those darn PH papers are not really precise, but I thought that I may have put too much lactic acid in.  Is this also a possible cause of astringency? Finally, compared to the Whitbred and Vierka yeasts I have used in the past, the EDME didn’t seem to clear as well in the secondary, but I went ahead and bottled anyway since I was under time constraints.  Could yeast in suspension give the same type of taste characteristics as astringency?

Well, there is always a problem with verbal descriptions of flavors.  I’m certainly no expert, but have found people with various interpretations of astringency. I believe two other things may possibly have contributed: 1) Infection.  Is this yeast from the same batch you used before?  Anything else change in the process? 2) Oxidation.  Any chance the beer oxidized during any racking operations after fermentation began? Plus, as someone already mentioned, you may just be getting a lot of bitterness from the hops.  I have noticed an astringent type of bitterness from overly dry-hopped beers. John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA–My views are my own

Response:

I’m a relatively new brewer and have just made the move to doing partial mashes.  I decided I would do a couple of simple ales to get experience with mashes, and after my second batch, I think I need a little help in assessing what’s gone wrong.

[...skipping to second batch...] So, now we come to the second batch… 2 1/2 lbs Pale Ale malt 1/2 lb 80L Crystal 1/2 lb 40L Crystal 1 1/4 lb Munton & Fison light DME 3.3 lb light extract syrup 1 oz Cascade (5.0 % alpha) boil – 60 mins 1 oz Fuggles (5.1 % alpha) boil – 30 mins 1 oz Fuggles – finish 1 tsp irish moss 2 pkg EDME yeast Same mashing specifications

[...] Second, I tasted some at bottling time, and from everything I’ve read, this beer has a definate astringency to it.  According to Miller, this is probably caused by: 1) Letting Hops sit too long in hot wort.

Likely cause, IMHO, but not from the finishing hops as you suggest. First of all, you have over 12.5 AAUs of hops listed above, which is a hefty portion to begin with. Beyond that, there’s lots to consider:   Were you using leaf or pelletized hops?  Due to their pulverized   nature, pelletized hops require less time in the boil to achieve   isomerization.  Miller says half the time, approximately.   How did you cool your wort?  Those "cooking" times for hops assume   fairly rapid chilling times from the boil, say 20 minutes tops.   What’s the sulfate ion level in your water.  High levels of sulfate,   especially with high hop rates, can lead to a dry astringent taste.   I learned that myself–the hard way. 2) High PH in sparge water.  On the recommendation of my brew shop, I have been using Lactic acid (17%) to adjust my sparge water.  I thought that if anything, my sparge PH was too LOW.  Those darn PH papers are not really precise, but I thought that I may have put too much lactic acid in.  Is this also a possible cause of astringency?

Dunno. Finally, compared to the Whitbred and Vierka yeasts I have used in the past, the EDME didn’t seem to clear as well in the secondary, but I went ahead and bottled anyway since I was under time constraints.  Could yeast in suspension give the same type of taste characteristics as astringency?

Well, along with the yeast in suspension are lots of bitter hop resins, which can defintely add to astringency.  Some cold storage time should help this beer clear and smooth out. Any help would be appreciated.  It seems that with each new batch, I learn one thing and mess up another.  Hopefully I won’t have to make a mistake on every single batch I brew.

Yeah, but that’s half the fun!  (This coming from the guy who inadvertently over-acidified his sparge water with latic acid, and turned six hours of mashing and boiling work into a veritable desert for yeast and bacteria alike!) Seriously, for each mistake I make, I’m greatful for the fact that there goes one more that I wont have to make again! Cheers, Bryan

Good luck and happy brewing. –Tom G.

Response:

I’m a relatively new brewer and have just made the move to doing partial mashes.  I decided I would do a couple of simple ales to get experience with mashes, and after my second batch, I think I need a little help in assessing what’s gone wrong. First, I bought a corona mill to crush my grain.  Since I am a big bread maker, I figured the $43 would be a good investment (and I could justify the expense to my wife).  I think I am getting a decent crush, because most all of the grains have the husks removed, and little flour is generated. Second, my wife and I constructed a grain bag like Miller describes and built a false bottom for my 7 gal. fermenting bucket w/spigot.  I don’t use it as a fermenter anymore, but now as a lauter tun and a priming bucket. I moved to glass carboys for fermenting after my first extract batch. So…trying to duplicate something close to a Killian’s Red ( I know, they’re calling it a lager now instead of an ale, but I still like it), I did my first partial mash, and it has been in the bottle for a couple of weeks.  The recipe I used: 2 1/2 lbs Pale Ale malt 1 lb 80L Crystal 3.3 lb light extract syrup 1/2 c light molassas (for flavor) 1 oz Northern Brewer (5.1 % alpha) for boil (60 mins.) 1 tsp irish moss 1 pkg Whitbred ale yeast 5 qt. mash water 2 gal. sparge water Mash in at 135 F conversion at 152 F for 1 hour O.G. 1.045 F.G. 1.009 Other than screwing up and not mixing the extract in well, therefore burning some of it on the bottom of the boiler, the taste I had of it while I was bottling was not bad.  The carmelization was apparent, but I’m hoping it mellows some – right now it tastes a bit like I added dark malt without the inherent smoothness.  It was a bit under-hopped, so I thought I’d try again. So, now we come to the second batch… 2 1/2 lbs Pale Ale malt 1/2 lb 80L Crystal 1/2 lb 40L Crystal 1 1/4 lb Munton & Fison light DME 3.3 lb light extract syrup 1 oz Cascade (5.0 % alpha) boil – 60 mins 1 oz Fuggles (5.1 % alpha) boil – 30 mins 1 oz Fuggles – finish 1 tsp irish moss 2 pkg EDME yeast Same mashing specifications O.G. 1.045 F.G. 1.010 First off, my extraction rate seems horrible.  Given the extra DME with the same amount of extract and Pale Ale malt (same brands, even), I should have gotten an O.G. of 5-10 points higher than the first batch, yet it was the same. Second, I tasted some at bottling time, and from everything I’ve read, this beer has a definate astringency to it.  According to Miller, this is probably caused by: 1) Letting Hops sit too long in hot wort.  Well, I did let my finishing hops sit in the boiler for about 10 minutes after I took it off the heat, but Miller himself recommends 15 minutes, so I’m not sure that had anything to do with it. 2) High PH in sparge water.  On the recommendation of my brew shop, I have been using Lactic acid (17%) to adjust my sparge water.  I thought that if anything, my sparge PH was too LOW.  Those darn PH papers are not really precise, but I thought that I may have put too much lactic acid in.  Is this also a possible cause of astringency? Finally, compared to the Whitbred and Vierka yeasts I have used in the past, the EDME didn’t seem to clear as well in the secondary, but I went ahead and bottled anyway since I was under time constraints.  Could yeast in suspension give the same type of taste characteristics as astringency? Any help would be appreciated.  It seems that with each new batch, I learn one thing and mess up another.  Hopefully I won’t have to make a mistake on every single batch I brew. Cheers, Bryan Bryan Cronk   BNR, Inc., Research Triangle Park, NC   (919) 991-7598 (W)   (919) 528-3375 (H) I have a hard enough time speaking for myself, let alone anyone else.

Response: