Brewing Master

Question:

I’m not sure but it seems to me that lots of H2O2 at 35% would be expensive.  If you can get a hold of it at a good price, you might be able to get a hold of HOCH2CH3 (ethanol) cheaper.  A 30 or 40% ethanol dilution should do the trick just fine. (I snipped my .signature….)  

Response:

Where can one get the 35% solution? Norm Baier

I use 30% H2O2 a lot here at work. It would not make a good brewing sanitizer for the following reasons. 1) brewing is messy and sloppy. I come a way from a good brewing session a least partially soaked with sanitizer. Peroxide (at 30% concentration) will eat your clothing and your skin and is very dangerous if it gets in your eyes. 2) It is not cheap ($5 for 500ml) 3) It is dangerous to store. It is a very strong oxidizer and so can greatly increase the danger of fires. Bleach or one step is cheaper, easier, safer, and just an all around better idea. don —

Response:

Where can one get the 35% solution? Norm Baier *** Do not reply to userid above. Private replies can be sent               to nbaier at hotmail.com  or remove "nospam_" from the Reply To: userid above. ***

It’s available in Cambridge and Kitchener, Ontario at a store called Country Bulk. They carry a wide range of bulk food and health food items. You might try a place like that in your area. Cheers, Ross Reid, Branchton, Ontario, Canada. If you don’t homebrew, at least support your local microbrewer. PLEASE READ: Unsolicited junk email is unwelcome. To reply, remove <nospam prefix from Reply To field in header.

Response:

: Um, at "full" strength H2O2 may cause your hand to spontaneously combust. : At 35% you will get the behavior you describe.  It is unlikely that you : will ever encounter full strength H2O2 because it is so darned dangerous, : but if you ever do, treat it with the utmost respect. : To which I will comment on the comment on my comment (?)… : Since the original posting mentioned 35%, and I did as well in a premise : to my statements, I hope no one other than this repliant has : missunderstood me to mean anything other than 35% when I used the term : full strength (as in right out of the bottle).  I’ve never found it : commercially available at any higher concentration, but if you do…#1 : be careful with it #2 tell me where you found it! Pure (well almost pure) H2O2 is used in some chemistry applications, and as rocket fuel.  The Germans used it in some experimental rocket planes during WWII.  It had a bad reputation among pilots since if they crash landed with any fuel in the tanks they were often reduced (oxidized, actually..) to very well bleached bones by the time the rescue team showed up. Anyway, your use of the 35% stuff sounds OK to me. –arne

Response:

Pure (well almost pure) H2O2 is used in some chemistry applications, and as rocket fuel.  The Germans used it in some experimental rocket planes during WWII.  It had a bad reputation among pilots since if they crash landed with any fuel in the tanks they were often reduced (oxidized, actually..) to very well bleached bones by the time the rescue team showed up. Anyway, your use of the 35% stuff sounds OK to me. –arne

What’s the common name of it?  Is this hydrozine?(sp?)  If so, It’s also used (i’m assuming full strength) in the F-16s EPU (emergency power unit) to power the flight controls when the engine quits, which isn’t that uncommon (inside dig at Viper drivers).  If the EPU has fired, large areas around the jet have to be evacuated and then the men in the funny suits come by to make sure it’s safe. heubs

Response:

: What’s the common name of it?  Is this hydrozine?(sp?)  If so, It’s also : used (i’m assuming full strength) in the F-16s EPU (emergency power unit) : to power the flight controls when the engine quits, which isn’t that : uncommon (inside dig at Viper drivers).  If the EPU has fired, large areas : around the jet have to be evacuated and then the men in the funny suits : come by to make sure it’s safe. No.  Hydrazine is H2NNH2, Hydrogen Peroxide is HOOH.  Both have been used as monopropellants, since they can be induced to decompose evolving much heat and gas.  They are also used as components in normal oxidizer-fuel type rockets.  Hydrazine is more stable than Hydrogen Peroxide, which makes it more suitable for the kind of use you describe. But it is also more toxic. Finally, it is a terrible thing to put in beer… –arne

Response:

After having touted the graces of peroxide usage, I have had several requests for a source for 35% H2O2, so I thought I would point out that I am living overseas and have no idea what is available in North America. 3% used to be quite commonly available in any drug store there, and 6% at the chemists in Australia (albeit with an anilide additive I believe) and I would suggest trying a chemical supply house for more concentrated stuff. There was another comment in response to my comment… : At full strength : it will "burn" your hands a bit if left on (wash it off), but at lesser : strengths (<3%) you can have your hands in it "all day".

 which was… Um, at "full" strength H2O2 may cause your hand to spontaneously combust. At 35% you will get the behavior you describe.  It is unlikely that you will ever encounter full strength H2O2 because it is so darned dangerous, but if you ever do, treat it with the utmost respect.

To which I will comment on the comment on my comment (?)… Since the original posting mentioned 35%, and I did as well in a premise to my statements, I hope no one other than this repliant has missunderstood me to mean anything other than 35% when I used the term full strength (as in right out of the bottle).  I’ve never found it commercially available at any higher concentration, but if you do…#1 be careful with it #2 tell me where you found it! Is Murphy’s Law applicable here, or is my usual jumbled syntax to blame? Dr. Pivo Oh, one other not entirely insignificant advantage with H202, if you want to see if your mixture (say, in a sanitizing bucket) is still efficacious, flick a bit on to a cement floor.  It will hiss, and bubble, and steam, like a cut from a 1950’s sci fi film (you know the part where the vial of acid gets broken in the evil scientist’s laboratory).  Really quite charming, and almost worth a purchase just for that spectacle (if you’re cheaply amused, as some of us are).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ross Reid was given a sales pitch on H2O2 as a sanitizer that went something like this: "H2O2 destroys micro-organisms 5,000 times faster than chlorine. It is effective against all of the bacteria which chlorine can remove, and exceeds chlorine in neutralizing pathogens, viruses and cysts from protozoa. Unlike chlorine, H2O2 is environmentally friendly because its waste byproducts are only oxygen and water". While I’m not really a full fledged tree-hugger, I figure every little bit helps so I’m asking, would H2O2 make an effective, no rinse sanitizer for the home brewer? If so, what would be the effective dilution? The stuff he sells is 35% and the info sheet gives dilution rates for many applications but not home brewery sanitizer. I haven’t used anything else for years (well, except for NaOH on the REALLY encrusted stuff). I’ve long since given over the Chlorine, Iodine products etc.  I buy 35% stuff 5 liters at a time and find it lasts me a couple of thousands of liters of brewing.  It is far cheaper than anything else, very effective, safe to work with, and probably better for coming generations. The bit about it’s waste products being "only oxygen and water" is a bit of a stretch of the truth.  In contact with organics it will pass on "free radicals", which are not remnants from Berkeley in 1968, but rather things that can be passed in turn to other substances.  If you compare this to the potentially carcenogenic byproducts that Chlorine can form in contact with organic material (dioxins), I’d have to consider it "relatively" harmless. I passed this question once to a Chemical Environmental Engineer (if you can spell your title with capital letters, you must be right) and he concurred. And if left to itself, yes it will just turn into 02 and H20. As to safe?  It is routinely used for flushing out the inside of peoples guts, after a particularly "filthy" operation, like where there colon has burst and poured poop all over the inside of their gut cavern (If you want any more specific details or descriptions, I’ll wait ’til you’re eating)– and THEY get up and walk afterwards.  At full strength it will "burn" your hands a bit if left on (wash it off), but at lesser strengths (<3%) you can have your hands in it "all day". Strength?  I’m guessing I use it at about 1-2%. Just a splash and a big squirt of water, and then slosh it between kegs or carboys.  It has a great "foaming" action (as the 02 is leaving the scene) and removes even particulate stuff.  I even keep a sanitizing bucket with about 1/2 – 1% in for tossing in airlocks, taps etc., and am surprised at how long it retains its usefulness (weeks).  As long as it foams when you chuck something in I reckon it’s still good. Another tip.  I keep a squirt bottle of 3% down in my lagering cellar, for cleaning the connect on a corny that has been lagering a long while, before connecting a tap or CO2 line. Either one squirt and a wipe off, or a squirt the day before planning to use it, and leave it. I feel a little bit hesitant in suggesting it as a "non-rinse".  I usually squirt a little water over my stuff after using it, but then again, I’ve always been far below the currently reccommended minimum adult daily requirement of two pints of Iodophore– I prefer beer — just funny that way. (Wonder what an Iodophenol tastes like?) I’d give it a try.  I don’t think you’ll ever go back to anything else. Dr. Pivo

Where can one get the 35% solution? Norm Baier *** Do not reply to userid above. Private replies can be sent           to nbaier at hotmail.com  or remove "nospam_" from the Reply To: userid above. ***

Response:

Ross Reid was given a sales pitch on H2O2 as a sanitizer that went something like this: "H2O2 destroys micro-organisms 5,000 times faster than chlorine. It is effective against all of the bacteria which chlorine can remove, and exceeds chlorine in neutralizing pathogens, viruses and cysts from protozoa. Unlike chlorine, H2O2 is environmentally friendly because its waste byproducts are only oxygen and water". While I’m not really a full fledged tree-hugger, I figure every little bit helps so I’m asking, would H2O2 make an effective, no rinse sanitizer for the home brewer? If so, what would be the effective dilution? The stuff he sells is 35% and the info sheet gives dilution rates for many applications but not home brewery sanitizer.

I haven’t used anything else for years (well, except for NaOH on the REALLY encrusted stuff). I’ve long since given over the Chlorine, Iodine products etc.  I buy 35% stuff 5 liters at a time and find it lasts me a couple of thousands of liters of brewing.  It is far cheaper than anything else, very effective, safe to work with, and probably better for coming generations. The bit about it’s waste products being "only oxygen and water" is a bit of a stretch of the truth.  In contact with organics it will pass on "free radicals", which are not remnants from Berkeley in 1968, but rather things that can be passed in turn to other substances.  If you compare this to the potentially carcenogenic byproducts that Chlorine can form in contact with organic material (dioxins), I’d have to consider it "relatively" harmless. I passed this question once to a Chemical Environmental Engineer (if you can spell your title with capital letters, you must be right) and he concurred. And if left to itself, yes it will just turn into 02 and H20. As to safe?  It is routinely used for flushing out the inside of peoples guts, after a particularly "filthy" operation, like where there colon has burst and poured poop all over the inside of their gut cavern (If you want any more specific details or descriptions, I’ll wait ’til you’re eating)– and THEY get up and walk afterwards.  At full strength it will "burn" your hands a bit if left on (wash it off), but at lesser strengths (<3%) you can have your hands in it "all day". Strength?  I’m guessing I use it at about 1-2%. Just a splash and a big squirt of water, and then slosh it between kegs or carboys.  It has a great "foaming" action (as the 02 is leaving the scene) and removes even particulate stuff.  I even keep a sanitizing bucket with about 1/2 – 1% in for tossing in airlocks, taps etc., and am surprised at how long it retains its usefulness (weeks).  As long as it foams when you chuck something in I reckon it’s still good. Another tip.  I keep a squirt bottle of 3% down in my lagering cellar, for cleaning the connect on a corny that has been lagering a long while, before connecting a tap or CO2 line. Either one squirt and a wipe off, or a squirt the day before planning to use it, and leave it. I feel a little bit hesitant in suggesting it as a "non-rinse".  I usually squirt a little water over my stuff after using it, but then again, I’ve always been far below the currently reccommended minimum adult daily requirement of two pints of Iodophore– I prefer beer — just funny that way. (Wonder what an Iodophenol tastes like?) I’d give it a try.  I don’t think you’ll ever go back to anything else. Dr. Pivo

Response:

: At full strength : it will "burn" your hands a bit if left on (wash it off), but at lesser : strengths (<3%) you can have your hands in it "all day". Um, at "full" strength H2O2 may cause your hand to spontaneously combust. At 35% you will get the behavior you describe.  It is unlikely that you will ever encounter full strength H2O2 because it is so darned dangerous, but if you ever do, treat it with the utmost respect. –arne

Response:

Greetings, I have a question for the chemists who frequent this forum. My brewing water is made up of water from a local, free running, artesian well (very hard) mixed 50/50 with RO water from a local bulk food/health food warehouse. The last time I picked up the RO water, the shop owner gave me a sales pitch on the benefits of hydrogen peroxide, you know one of those good for everything that ails you products. I now use Iodophor and/or chlorine as sanitizing agents, depending on the job to be done and have had no problems. However, the info sheet this fellow gave me on hydrogen peroxide, states, among many other things: "H2O2 destroys micro-organisms 5,000 times faster than chlorine. It is effective against all of the bacteria which chlorine can remove, and exceeds chlorine in neutralizing pathogens, viruses and cysts from protozoa. Unlike chlorine, H2O2 is environmentally friendly because its waste byproducts are only oxygen and water". While I’m not really a full fledged tree-hugger, I figure every little bit helps so I’m asking, would H2O2 make an effective, no rinse sanitizer for the home brewer? If so, what would be the effective dilution? The stuff he sells is 35% and the info sheet gives dilution rates for many applications but not home brewery sanitizer. Any information will be appreciated. Thanks, Ross Reid, Branchton, Ontario, Canada. If you don’t homebrew, at least support your local microbrewer. PLEASE READ: Unsolicited junk email is unwelcome. To reply, remove <nospam prefix from Reply To field in header.

Response: