Brewing Master

Question:

The interesting thing is that even when canned in a water batch the bulging of the lid is the key to knowing the canned item has been tainted.  Many, many homebrewers water bath can their wort.  If the lids ever bulge the throw it away.  I would say that they are safe so long as the lid does not bulge and to feel free to use them.

I used to use baby food jars partly for this reason.  Fill them hot, and the button pops back in . . . hawk, who lost them all in one of his moves — Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics    /"   ASCII ribbon campaign These opinions will not be those of              X    and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer.           /  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [Major snippage] What would you do in my situation? Any advice is appreciated. Ok, much as you have found out, the pH is key.  Anything above the magic number must be pressure canned, anything below can be canned in a water bath. The interesting thing is that even when canned in a water batch the bulging of the lid is the key to knowing the canned item has been tainted.  Many, many homebrewers water bath can their wort.  If the lids ever bulge the throw it away.  I would say that they are safe so long as the lid does not bulge and to feel free to use them. Personally, I pressure can mine. Cheers, Mike One approach would be to add acid until the pH was at a safe level. I think its near 3.5  Sometimes people need to do this with the newer hybrid tomatoes which don’t have enough acid. Brewing yeast don’t seem to mind this level pH (according to some authorities) and the "acid wash" is often used to cull wild yeast. The canned wort could then be used directly for a starter, or since the low pH weakens the yeast (according to some authorities) the pH can be corrected before making the starter. Personally, I pressure can too. The water bath method gets heavy, slow and hot in a hurry. For the very infrequent job it might not be worth buying a pressure canner but anyone who cans regularly is well advised to consider one.

An acid wash does decrease yeast viability (see Sep/Oct 98 issue of The New Brewer), but from the fermented foods class I had in College, I remember the magic number as 4.5 pH.  Below that, what they call hot-fill-hold is acceptable.  Commercially, the jars are inverted, so the lids get contact with the hot liquid.  It seems to me that pH of 4.5 isn’t all that low for yeast. Regards, Mike Sharp

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmmmm. I was going to rack to my 2nd fermenter and save some of the yeast tonight.  I was going to boil and sanitize, but didn’t know about needing to pressure cook. How much of a risk and how necessary is this??? From what I understand, the risk of botulism only comes about in an anaerobic environment with a pH lower than 4.6. This exactly describes the condition of starter wort which has been improperly canned. I don’t think yeast which has been cleaned and refrigerated is in any danger, as long as it is used fairly quickly.

No danger in yeast…. Botulism is not alcohol tolerant. Cheers, Mike

Response:

Hi Kevin,  I made a couple of starters a few weeks ago too.  I poured the kettle  trub into a tall skinny container, and after it had settled, there was  enough clear wort decanted to make two starters.  This made it  essentially free.  DME is getting too expensive to waste making  starters, I’ve decided.  I water bath canned them like you.  I put them  in the freezer after they cooled.  I hope this will slow or stop any  botulism growth.  They didn’t freeze solid, but look like a wort  popsicle.  I plan to thaw, and boil them again before I use them.  Allan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, a few hours ago I finished canning 5 quart jars of starter wort to use for yeast starters, using the "boil jars in my brewing pot" method, as described in "Brewing the World’s Great Beers", by Dave Miller. On a whim, I decided to see if anyone else does this, and did a google archive search on the subject. I learned that this is the improper way of canning a high pH ( 4.6) good, and can possibly result in me and my friends getting botulism and dying a horrible death. Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but I still have some questions which I hope someone can answer.

Response:

Hmmmm. I was going to rack to my 2nd fermenter and save some of the yeast tonight.  I was going to boil and sanitize, but didn’t know about needing to pressure cook. How much of a risk and how necessary is this???

From what I understand, the risk of botulism only comes about in an anaerobic environment with a pH lower than 4.6. This exactly describes the condition of starter wort which has been improperly canned. I don’t think yeast which has been cleaned and refrigerated is in any danger, as long as it is used fairly quickly. -Kevin

Response:

Freeze the wort in a covered container.  I keep a gallon of wort frozen. Scoop out what I need, put it in a flask, boil, cool, pitch yeast, brew. After your first batch, save some of the wort, freeze it, and now you don’t need to buy DME to make your next starter, plus it will be hopped (add protection against nasties). With the current "thing" being the bo-tox injections, you could be on to something, though…. Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, a few hours ago I finished canning 5 quart jars of starter wort to use for yeast starters, using the "boil jars in my brewing pot" method, as described in "Brewing the World’s Great Beers", by Dave Miller. On a whim, I decided to see if anyone else does this, and did a google archive search on the subject. I learned that this is the improper way of canning a high pH ( 4.6) good, and can possibly result in me and my friends getting botulism and dying a horrible death. Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but I still have some questions which I hope someone can answer. Here’s what I currently know: -Botulism has two components I have to worry about, spores and the toxin they produce. -The spores are not dangerous in and of themselves, are probably on everything I eat, and exist in my intestines. The toxin is what is dangerous. -The spores cannot be killed by my method of canning (too low a temperature), and my canned jar is the perfect environment for them to produce the (deadly) toxin. -The toxin can be destroyed by a short boil. -The proper way to can wort is to use a pressure cooker, which I do not have, and do not want to buy. -Since these starters cost me money (for the jars, and DME), time, and a trip to the brew-store (a fair drive), I’d really like to not have lost the resources I put in. IE, if it’s in any way possible to save the starters without jeopardizing anyones health, I’d like to do so. Here’s what I want to know: -If I pitch my yeast into my starter, will the alcohol produced from that quick fermentation destroy the toxin? -If that is not the case, and since I don’t believe botulism can survive in the end product (because there isn’t a rash of dead homebrewers, and Dave Miller isn’t being sued into the poorhouse), at what point does the toxin get destroyed? Like any good homebrewer, I would like to be able to taste my wort before pitching, but I’m not sure at what point it becomes safe. -Is botulism only a danger if the seals pop on my jars? Some of the past discussion on the subject seems to indicate this. -Will the toxin be generated by the spores if I refrigerate my jars (which I have intended to do all along anyway)? -Since my girlfriends mother has a pressure cooker, is it advisable or even possible to re-can the wort I’ve done using it? The way I see it, my options are: -Refrigerate the starters and use them without abandon. The odds seem in my favor, as no one seems to know of a case in which someone has died from beer wort, and a recognized beer authority (Dave Miller) recommends the process. -Boil, and then cool the starters before I use them. From what I know this should destroy the toxin and make the starters safe for any sort of use. -Take the seals off, and re-can the wort using a pressure cooker (assuming I can find one which is both big enough, and suitable for canning). -Use the starters normally, but do not taste my beer until fermentation is well on its way. Not my first choice. -Throw the starters out (except for perhaps the one I’m going to use in a day or two, because that shouldn’t have spoiled yet regardless). This is definitely my last choice. What would you do in my situation? Any advice is appreciated. -Kevin

Response:

Hmmmm. I was going to rack to my 2nd fermenter and save some of the yeast tonight.  I was going to boil and sanitize, but didn’t know about needing to pressure cook. How much of a risk and how necessary is this???

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, a few hours ago I finished canning 5 quart jars of starter wort to use for yeast starters, using the "boil jars in my brewing pot" method, as described in "Brewing the World’s Great Beers", by Dave Miller. On a whim, I decided to see if anyone else does this, and did a google archive search on the subject. I learned that this is the improper way of canning a high pH ( 4.6) good, and can possibly result in me and my friends getting botulism and dying a horrible death. Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but I still have some questions which I hope someone can answer. Here’s what I currently know: -Botulism has two components I have to worry about, spores and the toxin they produce. -The spores are not dangerous in and of themselves, are probably on everything I eat, and exist in my intestines. The toxin is what is dangerous. -The spores cannot be killed by my method of canning (too low a temperature), and my canned jar is the perfect environment for them to produce the (deadly) toxin. -The toxin can be destroyed by a short boil. -The proper way to can wort is to use a pressure cooker, which I do not have, and do not want to buy. -Since these starters cost me money (for the jars, and DME), time, and a trip to the brew-store (a fair drive), I’d really like to not have lost the resources I put in. IE, if it’s in any way possible to save the starters without jeopardizing anyones health, I’d like to do so. Here’s what I want to know: -If I pitch my yeast into my starter, will the alcohol produced from that quick fermentation destroy the toxin? -If that is not the case, and since I don’t believe botulism can survive in the end product (because there isn’t a rash of dead homebrewers, and Dave Miller isn’t being sued into the poorhouse), at what point does the toxin get destroyed? Like any good homebrewer, I would like to be able to taste my wort before pitching, but I’m not sure at what point it becomes safe. -Is botulism only a danger if the seals pop on my jars? Some of the past discussion on the subject seems to indicate this. -Will the toxin be generated by the spores if I refrigerate my jars (which I have intended to do all along anyway)? -Since my girlfriends mother has a pressure cooker, is it advisable or even possible to re-can the wort I’ve done using it? The way I see it, my options are: -Refrigerate the starters and use them without abandon. The odds seem in my favor, as no one seems to know of a case in which someone has died from beer wort, and a recognized beer authority (Dave Miller) recommends the process. -Boil, and then cool the starters before I use them. From what I know this should destroy the toxin and make the starters safe for any sort of use. -Take the seals off, and re-can the wort using a pressure cooker (assuming I can find one which is both big enough, and suitable for canning). -Use the starters normally, but do not taste my beer until fermentation is well on its way. Not my first choice. -Throw the starters out (except for perhaps the one I’m going to use in a day or two, because that shouldn’t have spoiled yet regardless). This is definitely my last choice. What would you do in my situation? Any advice is appreciated. -Kevin

Response:

Thank for the advice guys. I guess I’ll probably boil and cool the starters before using them, just to be safe. I don’t think I’ll bother with canning them again, unless I get a canner real cheap somehow. Sorry for the extra long post, but I figured that it would be better to give all the information I have up front, to avoid 20 responses telling me things I already knew. -Kevin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Personally, I pressure can too. The water bath method gets heavy, slow and hot in a hurry. For the very infrequent job it might not be worth buying a pressure canner but anyone who cans regularly is well advised to consider one. I had been watching e-bay for an All American Canner for a year or more (I borrowed the one I used to Pressure Can wort the last time I did it).  I recently saw one listed and the seller put a Buy It Now price on it of $25 after I sent them an e-mail so I snatched it up.  For another $10 I got it to the house.  The funny thing is the one I bought is in better shape than the one I borrowed… Cheers, Mike

Response:

Personally, I pressure can too. The water bath method gets heavy, slow and hot in a hurry. For the very infrequent job it might not be worth buying a pressure canner but anyone who cans regularly is well advised to consider one.

I had been watching e-bay for an All American Canner for a year or more (I borrowed the one I used to Pressure Can wort the last time I did it).  I recently saw one listed and the seller put a Buy It Now price on it of $25 after I sent them an e-mail so I snatched it up.  For another $10 I got it to the house.  The funny thing is the one I bought is in better shape than the one I borrowed… Cheers, Mike

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [Major snippage] What would you do in my situation? Any advice is appreciated. Ok, much as you have found out, the pH is key.  Anything above the magic number must be pressure canned, anything below can be canned in a water bath. The interesting thing is that even when canned in a water batch the bulging of the lid is the key to knowing the canned item has been tainted.  Many, many homebrewers water bath can their wort.  If the lids ever bulge the throw it away.  I would say that they are safe so long as the lid does not bulge and to feel free to use them. Personally, I pressure can mine. Cheers, Mike

One approach would be to add acid until the pH was at a safe level. I think its near 3.5  Sometimes people need to do this with the newer hybrid tomatoes which don’t have enough acid. Brewing yeast don’t seem to mind this level pH (according to some authorities) and the "acid wash" is often used to cull wild yeast. The canned wort could then be used directly for a starter, or since the low pH weakens the yeast (according to some authorities) the pH can be corrected before making the starter. Personally, I pressure can too. The water bath method gets heavy, slow and hot in a hurry. For the very infrequent job it might not be worth buying a pressure canner but anyone who cans regularly is well advised to consider one.

Response:

[Major snippage] What would you do in my situation? Any advice is appreciated.

Ok, much as you have found out, the pH is key.  Anything above the magic number must be pressure canned, anything below can be canned in a water bath. The interesting thing is that even when canned in a water batch the bulging of the lid is the key to knowing the canned item has been tainted.  Many, many homebrewers water bath can their wort.  If the lids ever bulge the throw it away.  I would say that they are safe so long as the lid does not bulge and to feel free to use them. Personally, I pressure can mine. Cheers, Mike

Response:

-If that is not the case, and since I don’t believe botulism can survive in the end product (because there isn’t a rash of dead homebrewers, and Dave Miller isn’t being sued into the poorhouse), at what point does the toxin get destroyed? Like any good homebrewer, I would like to be able to taste my wort before pitching, but I’m not sure at what point it becomes safe.

Sorry, just realized that my prior to pitching, my wort wouldn’t have touched the starter anyway. One too many storeboughts (no homebrews yet unfortunately!) I guess. The rest of my post is still valid though. -Kevin

Response:

Like you said, spores exist on everything, and since you can’t get the temp high enough (without a pressure cooker), what you can do is Pasteurize your starters. I actually boil mine 3 times, spaced out by 24 hours. First boil in my brew pot, second and third I do in a water bath while the canning jars sit inside with the lids still on, but loosened. You can’t kill the spores, but you can kill the microbes. Boiling kills the microbes that are no in their spore state, 24 hours allows time for the spores to become active in their new and bountiful home (your starter), and then the successive boils kills them. The third is just to make me feel better. I can’t remember the numbers right now, but this form of pasteurization is supposed to be close to foolproof. Do a search on google. HTH Cameron

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -If that is not the case, and since I don’t believe botulism can survive in the end product (because there isn’t a rash of dead homebrewers, and Dave Miller isn’t being sued into the poorhouse), at what point does the toxin get destroyed? Like any good homebrewer, I would like to be able to taste my wort before pitching, but I’m not sure at what point it becomes safe. Sorry, just realized that my prior to pitching, my wort wouldn’t have touched the starter anyway. One too many storeboughts (no homebrews yet unfortunately!) I guess. The rest of my post is still valid though. -Kevin

Response:

Ok, a few hours ago I finished canning 5 quart jars of starter wort to use for yeast starters, using the "boil jars in my brewing pot" method, as described in "Brewing the World’s Great Beers", by Dave Miller. On a whim, I decided to see if anyone else does this, and did a google archive search on the subject. I learned that this is the improper way of canning a high pH ( 4.6) good, and can possibly result in me and my friends getting botulism and dying a horrible death. Sorry for bringing up an old thread, but I still have some questions which I hope someone can answer. Here’s what I currently know: -Botulism has two components I have to worry about, spores and the toxin they produce. -The spores are not dangerous in and of themselves, are probably on everything I eat, and exist in my intestines. The toxin is what is dangerous. -The spores cannot be killed by my method of canning (too low a temperature), and my canned jar is the perfect environment for them to produce the (deadly) toxin. -The toxin can be destroyed by a short boil. -The proper way to can wort is to use a pressure cooker, which I do not have, and do not want to buy. -Since these starters cost me money (for the jars, and DME), time, and a trip to the brew-store (a fair drive), I’d really like to not have lost the resources I put in. IE, if it’s in any way possible to save the starters without jeopardizing anyones health, I’d like to do so. Here’s what I want to know: -If I pitch my yeast into my starter, will the alcohol produced from that quick fermentation destroy the toxin? -If that is not the case, and since I don’t believe botulism can survive in the end product (because there isn’t a rash of dead homebrewers, and Dave Miller isn’t being sued into the poorhouse), at what point does the toxin get destroyed? Like any good homebrewer, I would like to be able to taste my wort before pitching, but I’m not sure at what point it becomes safe. -Is botulism only a danger if the seals pop on my jars? Some of the past discussion on the subject seems to indicate this. -Will the toxin be generated by the spores if I refrigerate my jars (which I have intended to do all along anyway)? -Since my girlfriends mother has a pressure cooker, is it advisable or even possible to re-can the wort I’ve done using it? The way I see it, my options are: -Refrigerate the starters and use them without abandon. The odds seem in my favor, as no one seems to know of a case in which someone has died from beer wort, and a recognized beer authority (Dave Miller) recommends the process. -Boil, and then cool the starters before I use them. From what I know this should destroy the toxin and make the starters safe for any sort of use. -Take the seals off, and re-can the wort using a pressure cooker (assuming I can find one which is both big enough, and suitable for canning). -Use the starters normally, but do not taste my beer until fermentation is well on its way. Not my first choice. -Throw the starters out (except for perhaps the one I’m going to use in a day or two, because that shouldn’t have spoiled yet regardless). This is definitely my last choice. What would you do in my situation? Any advice is appreciated. -Kevin

Response: