Brewing Master

Question:

A couple important points that were left out of the Clostridium post… Clostridium toxins are extremely potent and will kill you..it’s not worth the price of the malt to try and save it. When brewing beer and most wines, the low pH (4.5 and stay alive) will prevent Clostridium from growing.   Mead and some wines such as banana can be breeding grounds for Clostridium spores, it’s wise to add some type of food grade acid to these brews (citric acid). Bret Percival

Response:

I’ve used them no problem I’ve done full boils for 60 mins with cans that were bulging and have dranking the beer with no ill effect These extract were about a year and a half old, used new yeast and dumped the old in as nutrient during boil.Also added new hops. Send them to me if you don’t want them please By the way how old are the cans of malt?

Response:

Through a vendor closeout, I bought about 6 cans of extract "kits" and almost all of them are bulging; checked the dates, and they are a couple of years old to fairly recent stuff. I was told by an extract processor that these cans of malt will impart a darker than normal color, but the flavor will not suffer – that remains to be seen. I’m going to use them only to pump of gravity of partial mashes. My question is why the internal pressure?  The reply given is that wild yeasts caused fermentation, which really doesn’t make sense to me considering these extracts are supposedly produced under heated and sanitary conditions. Anyone got a clue? Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve used them no problem I’ve done full boils for 60 mins with cans that were bulging and have dranking the beer with no ill effect These extract were about a year and a half old, used new yeast and dumped the old in as nutrient during boil.Also added new hops. Send them to me if you don’t want them please By the way how old are the cans of malt?

Response:

My question is why the internal pressure?  The reply given is that wild yeasts caused fermentation, which really doesn’t make sense to me considering these extracts are supposedly produced under heated and sanitary conditions. Anyone got a clue?

Bacteria sometimes get in, no process is perfect. The most common cause of bulging in canned goods is the presence of clostridium botulinum, which can reproduce anaerobically and can survive up 10 min at 212F (it can survive pasteurization). The FDA recommends taking bulging canned goods to a hazardous waste disposal site or burying them. I believe that such high concentrations of sugars should inhibit bacterial growth, but perhaps some separation of water and sugars has occured over time. It thrives in pH higher that 4.6; I am not sure what the pH of LME is. Botulinim is one of the most deadly toxins known, causing death by paralysis leading to respiratory failure. Botulism outbreaks are not real common (10-30 per year in the U.S.), and the toxin breaks down after roughly 10 minutes at boiling temperatures. I would tend not to use them, but if you do take precautions. Make sure to use a full length boil (for god’s sake, don’t follow the no-boil directions that they often print on the can). Just as importantly, watch what the extract comes in contact with, and disinfect the heck out of it when you are done (the rim of your brewpot, spoons, the kitchen countertop, etc.). Trevor

Response:

extracts are supposedly produced under heated and sanitary conditions.

The key word here is "supposedly" – even though, almost all canned goods have expiration dates & the swelling in your cans is caused by spoilage either bacterial or otherwise. You might be able to use them but the beer would certainly be questionable at best. My advice is to throw them out. "If you love wealth more than liberty,the tranquillity of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your cousel or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen" – Samuel Adams

Response:

[snip] It thrives in pH higher that 4.6; I am not sure what the pH of LME is. Botulinim is one of the most deadly toxins known, causing death by paralysis leading to respiratory failure. Botulism outbreaks are not real common (10-30 per year in the U.S.), and the toxin breaks down after roughly 10 minutes at boiling temperatures. I would tend not to use them, but if you do take precautions. Make sure to use a full length boil (for god’s sake, don’t follow the no-boil directions that they often print on the can). Just as importantly, watch what the extract comes in contact with, and disinfect the heck out of it when you are done (the rim of your brewpot, spoons, the kitchen countertop, etc.).

It is the toxin you’re worried about here, not the microbe. Disinfecting may kill the microbe, but it does not necessarily deactivate the toxin, since the toxin itself is not alive. I think the pH thing is the key here.  Does *anyone* have hard data on the pH range for LME, and whether it is always below the cutoff for botulism activity?  If there is *any* chance that botulism toxin can be produced in LME, I would not use bulging cans.  Saving the cost of a can of LME is not worth risking your life over. —

Response:

What I’ve been told is that enzyme’s are at work, it can not be botulism as the wort is pasteurized. Also, the fact your boiling the wort for a full hour is going to kill anything.  Whether I’d use a bulging can, Well, I kind of think not.In fact, Im getting ready to pitch some Gordie LME.  If anyones interested in at cost them let me know…. — Doug Evans VinBrew Supply 740/756-4314 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

It is the toxin you’re worried about here, not the microbe. Disinfecting may kill the microbe, but it does not necessarily deactivate the toxin, since the toxin itself is not alive.

Actually, in this particular case the toxin is heat labile, and more easily destroyed than the bacteria (the toxin breaks down after 10 minutes at boiling temperatures, whereas the the bacteria requires extended periods under steam pressure, usually 15 psi — 250 degrees F). <snip it can not be botulism as the wort is pasteurized.

There are a handful of botulism outbreaks from commercial pasteurized goods every year in the US; it can and does happen. Don’t ignore the evidence because of faith in the process. Trevor

Response:

Greetings All, I have some personal experience with old bulged cans of LME.  I got some a few years ago that were about 5 years old at the time. The beer I made with it had an off-flavor I’m pretty sure was due to the extract’s age.  Or maybe the LME they made 8-10 years ago didn’t taste like it does today? Who knows. Either way, I’m not sure the beer was worth the effort. If you do chose to use your LME (your’s probably isn’t as old as mine was) I don’t think you have to worry about botulism, I found the following at http://neptune.netimages.com/~chile/botulism.html.  It looks like the toxin would be destroyed during the boiling process, it’s probably denatured by the heat.  It also appears that the actual spores are inactive at pH < 4.6.  This seems low, but I wouldn’t be surprised if beer is lower than that once fermentation starts.  CO2 in solution is a diprotic acid, H2CO3. Here’s the article: Introduction and Basics C. botulinum is the spore responsible for the illness we call botulism. It is in the soil. Your herb leaves, garlic cloves, petals, fruit, or chiles will come into contact with garden soil. Anything that actually disturbs the soil surface will put the microorganisms into the air and from there it lands on the plants. Plant material that has this spore can be carried into the house. The spore will NOT hurt you. You have probably eaten them every day. The spore is like a seed, the seed form won’t hurt you. When this spore grows and reproduces it creates a toxin. This toxin is what causes botulism. Although botulism toxin in food can be destroyed by boiling at 212 degrees F (100C) for 10 minutes, the spores (which create the toxin) are heat resistant and can survive prolonged boiling. To destroy c. botulinum spores, food must be heated under pressure to temperatures substantially greater than 212 degrees F (such as with a pressure canner). Certain environmental conditions, such as absence of oxygen, pH greater than 4.6, warm temperatures, high moisture content (water activity) and lack of competing bacterial flora promote production of botulism toxin in food contaminated with c. botulinum spores. Covering foods in oil may provide the anaerobic conditions required for the production of botulism toxin. Outbreaks of botulism in the United States and Canada have been caused by covering vegetables with oil or grease. Disinfecting may kill the microbe, but it does not necessarily deactivate the toxin, since the toxin itself is not alive.

If there is *any* chance that botulism toxin can be – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – produced in LME, I would not use bulging cans.  Saving the cost of a can of LME is not worth risking your life over.

Response:

A friend gave me his beer stuff, he got diabetes and gave up the hobby. Anywho, he had 4 cans of malt, two unmarked, all bulging. I used all of them and got GREAT beer! So, use them or lose them. S.C. Brewer,   G.Coats

Response:

Typically Lactobacillis (spelling?) Jim Dudley Northwestern – Premium Food & Beverage Ingredients Brookfield WI   53005 http://nwextract.com

Response:

of bulging in canned goods is the presence of clostridium botulinum, which can reproduce anaerobically and can survive up 10 min at 212F

Ten minutes at 176 degrees fahrenheit kills the multiplying bacillus, and moist heat at 248 degrees kills the spores, says     Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1997 lexan version. Ten minutes at 360 degrees fahrenheit kills the spores, says     Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1976 cellulose version. Note that the temperatures to kill the spores cannot be reached by boiling water on your stovetop. A pressure cooker or autoclave must be used (says Dan). Clostridium botulinum is not harmful (I don’t think) but it’s waste products are a toxin.  I’m no expert, but I don’t think any amount of boiling will remove the toxins.  

"Unlike the spores, the toxin is readily destroyed by heat; it remains potent unless the contaminated food is not heated at least to a mild degree before it is eaten."     Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1976 cellulose version Two minutes at 158 degrees fahrenheit destroys the toxin, says     Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1997 lexan version Let us speak of it no further — Dan L

Response:

of bulging in canned goods is the presence of clostridium botulinum, which can reproduce anaerobically and can survive up 10 min at 212F

Clostridium botulinum is not harmful (I don’t think) but it’s waste products are a toxin.  I’m no expert, but I don’t think any amount of boiling will remove the toxins.  Any bulging cans should not be used. -david

Response:

I’m sure this question has been asked before but I am restarting my brewery next week. I noticed that 2 old of Light Malt Extact   cans are bulging. Can I go ahead and still use them? Thanks for your help. Bruce

Response:

Hi Bruce, I wouldn’t use ANY product in which the can was bulging. I wouldn’t even open it in my kitchen. Tom

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m sure this question has been asked before but I am restarting my brewery next week. I noticed that 2 old of Light Malt Extact cans are bulging. Can I go ahead and still use them? Thanks for your help. Bruce

Response: