Brewing Master

Question:

Where’s [Z]?  This is right up his alley!

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t think you can introduce oxygen during the boil.  To do so, you would have to overcome the steam escaping the boil, and force air or oxygen into it.  I might be wrong, since I no chemist, but I just cannot see it happening from outside influences.

Response:

I can also believe that these oxidative reactions occur during the boil as well. I don’t think you can introduce oxygen during the boil.  To do so, you would have to overcome the steam escaping the boil, and force air or oxygen into it.  I might be wrong, since I no chemist, but I just cannot see it happening from outside influences.

I was thinking about this earlier in the thread.  Water out of the tap has oxygen disolved in it already, right?  Assuming you don’t take any special steps to drive it out before/during the mash, then the wort you are boiling will have oxygen in it.  Wouldn’t HSA be a factor in that case? I’m still not sure whether I believe HSA is a real concern or not, but the above was just running through my head recently. John. —                            *** John P. Kolesar ***            *** Head Administrator, Monty Python’s Flying Talker ***

Response:

Boiling will remove the O2 from the water/wort. Having been a Chemist in a former life, it’s easy to understand that the very reactive O2 molecule will interact with the chemicals in beer and it’s all a time/temp thing as to how much damage is done.  I don’t sweat the boil because there is very little O2 around.  The mash is where I would pay attention.  However, I haven’t seen any real data that supports HSA is a critical item to keep an eye on.  It’s my knowledge of chemistry that tells me to keep it to a minimum.  So I don’t go out of my way to aerate the mash and I don’t go out of my way to prevent HSA.  <— is that total fence sitting or what? Burp, -Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can also believe that these oxidative reactions occur during the boil as well. I don’t think you can introduce oxygen during the boil.  To do so, you would have to overcome the steam escaping the boil, and force air or oxygen into it.  I might be wrong, since I no chemist, but I just cannot see it happening from outside influences. I was thinking about this earlier in the thread.  Water out of the tap has oxygen disolved in it already, right?  Assuming you don’t take any special steps to drive it out before/during the mash, then the wort you are boiling will have oxygen in it.  Wouldn’t HSA be a factor in that case? I’m still not sure whether I believe HSA is a real concern or not, but the above was just running through my head recently. John. —                            *** John P. Kolesar ***            *** Head Administrator, Monty Python’s Flying Talker ***

Response:

I’m not buying it. (I get the HBD, and check it daily.) The HBD has many folks that are "In the know", but also has quite a few that are not…

Guess I fall into that latter category, do I? Brian

Response:

I’m not buying it. (I get the HBD, and check it daily.) The HBD has many folks that are "In the know", but also has quite a few that are not… Guess I fall into that latter category, do I?

Nahh Cheers, Mike

Response:

Isn’t HSA more likely when mashing and then going to mashout and THEN transferring all the grain to another vessel to sparge?

Response:

In the work I do, that stands for Hollow Stem Auger.  You probably mean something else, though.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Isn’t HSA more likely when mashing and then going to mashout and THEN transferring all the grain to another vessel to sparge?

Response:

Isn’t HSA more likely when mashing and then going to mashout and THEN transferring all the grain to another vessel to sparge?

HSA is an argument, or point of discussion in homebrewing circles. Personally, I cannot fathom how HSA could occur pre-boil and then survive the boil.  So I think either is equally likely, or IMHO, not likely at all. With that in mind, I still do not splash hot wort, mash, or sparge water as it enters the mash tun. It is just good practice to not splash at all except post boil and post chill and before fermentation has begun. Cheers, Mike

Response:

I think that’s called a "colandria" (sp?).  Spencer’s here in Eugene (when they were open) used a kettle like that.  Gary, their brewer, said it made for some hellacious boils. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I got a chance to tour the Uinta Brewery in Salt Lake City (they make a great BW) and their kettle has a stack inside it that forces the boiling wort to really churn very similar to a percolator coffee pot.  This is not there own design, it’s commercially available. I can’t believe HSA occurs significantly in the boil either. Burp, -Dan

Response:

I got a chance to tour the Uinta Brewery in Salt Lake City (they make a great BW) and their kettle has a stack inside it that forces the boiling wort to really churn very similar to a percolator coffee pot.  This is not there own design, it’s commercially available. I can’t believe HSA occurs significantly in the boil either. Burp, -Dan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t think you can introduce oxygen during the boil.  To do so, you would have to overcome the steam escaping the boil, and force air or oxygen into it.  I might be wrong, since I no chemist, but I just cannot see it happening from outside influences. Check the HBD archives. Using keywords like Alexander and oxidation should bring up the relevent recent threads. Partial covering is supposed to be a necessary part of using the steam to protect the surface. With a vigourous boil, there is some splashing at the surface, and this I believe is where the reactions are occurring. I’m not buying it. (I get the HBD, and check it daily.) The HBD has many folks that are "In the know", but also has quite a few that are not… Covering the pot too much can lead to DMS issues that are real, and not controversial. In my converted Sanke’s when boiling there is absolutely no way any air is getting through the steam and to the surface of the beer.  In a shallow wide pot, that might be possible. Cheers, Mike

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t think you can introduce oxygen during the boil.  To do so, you would have to overcome the steam escaping the boil, and force air or oxygen into it.  I might be wrong, since I no chemist, but I just cannot see it happening from outside influences. Check the HBD archives. Using keywords like Alexander and oxidation should bring up the relevent recent threads. Partial covering is supposed to be a necessary part of using the steam to protect the surface. With a vigourous boil, there is some splashing at the surface, and this I believe is where the reactions are occurring.

I’m not buying it. (I get the HBD, and check it daily.) The HBD has many folks that are "In the know", but also has quite a few that are not… Covering the pot too much can lead to DMS issues that are real, and not controversial. In my converted Sanke’s when boiling there is absolutely no way any air is getting through the steam and to the surface of the beer.  In a shallow wide pot, that might be possible. Cheers, Mike

Response:

Do you guys have a place where these acronyms are listed?  Beer ones such as HSA, and the basic usenet shorthand, such as IMHO, YMMV, ROFL, etc.?

http://www.ucc.ie/acronyms/ http://brewery.org/brewery/infobase/Acronyms.html

Response:

I don’t think you can introduce oxygen during the boil.  To do so, you would have to overcome the steam escaping the boil, and force air or oxygen into it.  I might be wrong, since I no chemist, but I just cannot see it happening from outside influences.

Check the HBD archives. Using keywords like Alexander and oxidation should bring up the relevent recent threads. Partial covering is supposed to be a necessary part of using the steam to protect the surface. With a vigourous boil, there is some splashing at the surface, and this I believe is where the reactions are occurring. I’m a little lost on this.  Water chemistry is certainly not a strong point for me.  What would the powder potentially do?

It adds free sulfur dioxide to the water, which binds with oxygen so that it can’t form other compounds or reactions. That’s as good an explanation as you will get from me, I’m no chemist either. Brian

Response:

Boiling will remove the O2 from the water/wort.

Assuming HSA can occur before the boil, and the boil will drive out the oxygen in the liquid, it will at least prevent further HSA reactions? But the real question for the chemists is: "How much HSA must occur before it becomes a factor that can be tasted?" 2 minutes? 20 minutes? 200 minutes? Sloshing the wort? Splashing the wort? Hooking up an air compressor hose and dipping it in the wort?

Response:

Do you guys have a place where these acronyms are listed?  Beer ones such as HSA, and the basic usenet shorthand, such as IMHO, YMMV, ROFL, etc.? Without them, following the posted definition just leads to confusion. Subbing the definition provided into the original statement, we have:  Isn’t an argument, or point of discussion in homebrewing circles more likely when mashing and then going to mashout and THEN transferring all the grain to another vessel to sparge? Alternately, we can extract an assumed definition from readit the entire thread:   Isn’t hot side aeration more likely when mashing and then going to mashout and THEN transferring all the grain to another vessel to sparge? Cheers

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Isn’t HSA more likely when mashing and then going to mashout and THEN transferring all the grain to another vessel to sparge? HSA is an argument, or point of discussion in homebrewing circles. Personally, I cannot fathom how HSA could occur pre-boil and then survive the boil.  So I think either is equally likely, or IMHO, not likely at all. With that in mind, I still do not splash hot wort, mash, or sparge water as it enters the mash tun. It is just good practice to not splash at all except post boil and post chill and before fermentation has begun. Cheers, Mike

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Isn’t HSA more likely when mashing and then going to mashout and THEN transferring all the grain to another vessel to sparge? HSA is an argument, or point of discussion in homebrewing circles. Personally, I cannot fathom how HSA could occur pre-boil and then survive the boil.  So I think either is equally likely, or IMHO, not likely at all. With that in mind, I still do not splash hot wort, mash, or sparge water as it enters the mash tun. Interesting that many homebrewers accept the notion that a good chemical reaction (FWH flavour) will survive the boil, but not a negative one. I’m no chemist (nor do I play one on TV) but I can accept the notion that chemical reactions can form both beneficial and detrimental compounds in our wort that require more than the heat of boiling to undo.

Good point that chemical reactions might survive the boil.  Whether they do or not, I guess if for the chemists to figure out.  To survive, they first have to happen, and if he doesn’t splash anything, they won’t. I can also believe that these oxidative reactions occur during the boil as well.

I don’t think you can introduce oxygen during the boil.  To do so, you would have to overcome the steam escaping the boil, and force air or oxygen into it.  I might be wrong, since I no chemist, but I just cannot see it happening from outside influences. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I can’t believe is why there is so much resistance to the simple technique of adding some sulfites to the mash water, just on the chance they might do some good, and likely won’t do any harm (when used with reasonable amounts). There is experimental evidence that it does work. More so than probably exists to support the notion that popping anti-oxidants such as Vitamin C and E protects our bodies from free radical damage, yet many of us (including me) do so with a "might help, probably can’t hurt" type of attitude. 1/4 tsp potassium metabisulfite powder into your mash water (for a 5 gallon batch). Try it.

I’m a little lost on this.  Water chemistry is certainly not a strong point for me.  What would the powder potentially do? Cheers, Mike

Response:

Isn’t HSA more likely when mashing and then going to mashout and THEN transferring all the grain to another vessel to sparge? HSA is an argument, or point of discussion in homebrewing circles. Personally, I cannot fathom how HSA could occur pre-boil and then survive the boil.  So I think either is equally likely, or IMHO, not likely at all. With that in mind, I still do not splash hot wort, mash, or sparge water as it enters the mash tun.

Interesting that many homebrewers accept the notion that a good chemical reaction (FWH flavour) will survive the boil, but not a negative one. I’m no chemist (nor do I play one on TV) but I can accept the notion that chemical reactions can form both beneficial and detrimental compounds in our wort that require more than the heat of boiling to undo. I can also believe that these oxidative reactions occur during the boil as well. What I can’t believe is why there is so much resistance to the simple technique of adding some sulfites to the mash water, just on the chance they might do some good, and likely won’t do any harm (when used with reasonable amounts). There is experimental evidence that it does work. More so than probably exists to support the notion that popping anti-oxidants such as Vitamin C and E protects our bodies from free radical damage, yet many of us (including me) do so with a "might help, probably can’t hurt" type of attitude. 1/4 tsp potassium metabisulfite powder into your mash water (for a 5 gallon batch). Try it. Brian

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