Brewing Master

Question:

When I finally get around to buying my own place, I plan on doing this…along with a 40 gallon brewery. — Joe O’Meara He who drinks beer sleeps well.  He who sleeps well cannot sin.  He who does not sin goes to Heaven.  Amen." — Unkown Monk – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why doesn’t anyone worried about saving water set up a Closed water system and just reuse the water. It would be inexpensive to get several 55 drums and fill with water, using a pump transfer the water. I have been using a pump and chiller system to transfer water from my fish ponds for several years now. Between ponds I have over 1200 gallons of water chilled at my disposal. More than enough to chill even a 10 gallon batch in no time. In the winter months the average temperature is around 38*f.. The heated water helps get my tropical lilies off to a start in the greenhouse in the springtime several months ahead of time The two things that will make the output temp colder is slower feed of the wort or higher water flow. I find that in the winter, with cold tap water, I can pump at full speed. In the summer, I need to slow it down a bit. I could turn the water up higher but even in Portland, saving water is the right thing to do.  I put a thermometer on the output so I could adjust the two flows to hit my target temp. Burp, -Dan — Replace nospam with msn to email me. Used my CFC for the first time today. Its 25′ of 3/8" OD copper tubing sheathed in 5/8" ID vinyl. Took fresh-from-the-burner wort and brought it to 85 degrees in 1 pass. I’ve heard folks talk about getting it lower. Should I run the wort through slower? (I used a pump to pull it through) Run the water faster? Slower? Find a decent balance?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s a very common misconception.  People think that if the cooling water comes out hotter on the other end, that it’s working better. Unfortunately that’s backwards.  The faster the flow, and the colder the water is when it exits, the more it is chilling your wort. Part of the problem is the definition of "efficiency".  If you were to look in a standard engineering text (I’ve looked at several in my life… you’d find that indeed the goal is to minimize the amount of cooling water to get a given output temp.  But this doesn’t matter to a normal homebrewer the way it matters to someone designing an industrial power plant or something. Turn the water up all the way.  Unless you like in the desert this is the most "efficient" way to cool the wort.

True, which is why I intentionally didn’t use the word "efficient".  If you want efficiency in the sense of taking the least amount of time to cool, then the faster the flow the better.  If you want efficiency in the sense of taking the least amount of water to cool, then a slower flow is better.  In my opinion, water is cheap, and the faster I can chill, the better cold break I get and the faster I can get the yeast into the wort.  Unless you’re on well water and/or currently in a bad drought, I don’t really see the point in trying to minimize water usage at the sacrifice of cooling speed. What I was trying to address was the common misconception that the water coming out slower and warmer means that it is chilling faster.  I agree that we need to be careful with words like "better" and "efficient". John. —                            *** John P. Kolesar ***                          *** Valley Mead Brewery ***

Response:

7.5 gallons of wort to 90 degrees in 10 minutes or so….And faster when the weather changes as my tap water gets close

| | | | That’s a very common misconception.  People think that if the cooling | water comes out hotter on the other end, that it’s working better. | Unfortunately that’s backwards.  The faster the flow, and the colder the | water is when it exits, the more it is chilling your wort. | | Part of the problem is the definition of "efficiency".  If you were to look | in | a standard engineering text (I’ve looked at several in my life… you’d | find that indeed the goal is to minimize the amount of cooling water to get | a given output temp.  But this doesn’t matter to a normal homebrewer the | way it matters to someone designing an industrial power plant or something. | | Turn the water up all the way.  Unless you like in the desert this is the | most "efficient" way to cool the wort. | | True, which is why I intentionally didn’t use the word "efficient".  If | you want efficiency in the sense of taking the least amount of time to | cool, then the faster the flow the better.  If you want efficiency in | the sense of taking the least amount of water to cool, then a slower | flow is better.  In my opinion, water is cheap, and the faster I can | chill, the better cold break I get and the faster I can get the | yeast into the wort.  Unless you’re on well water and/or currently in a bad | drought, I don’t really see the point in trying to minimize water usage | at the sacrifice of cooling speed. | | What I was trying to address was the common misconception that the water | coming out slower and warmer means that it is chilling faster.  I agree | that we need to be careful with words like "better" and "efficient". | | John. | | — |                            *** John P. Kolesar *** |                          *** Valley Mead Brewery ***

Response:

If you slow down your cooling water it will absorb more heat…as the cooling water temperature increases the temperature difference between the wort and your cooling water will decrease.  As this difference becomes small, all other things equal, your heat transfer will be reduced.  Maxing out your cooling water will maximize the temperature difference (counterflow chillers are designed to maintain the largest temperature difference at each point) and maximize cooling. Glad to help! MCD

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Heat transfer is so interesting because there are so many variables…heat transfer area, material of construction, Reynolds number, fluid heat capacity…and on and on.  The key is to optimize the available variables based on your system.  Maximize your cooling water flow and then increase your wort flow until you receive an appropriate temperature. Ok… main reason I asked is I THOUGHT I read somewhere that if you actually SLOW your cooling water, it’ll cool better… maybe because it has more time to absorb heat. Didnt make sense to me… and from whats come out on this thread… guess whoever posted that was wrong, or I read it backwards. Thanks for the info, all.

Response:

Used my CFC for the first time today. Its 25′ of 3/8" OD copper tubing sheathed in 5/8" ID vinyl. Took fresh-from-the-burner wort and brought it to 85 degrees in 1 pass. I’ve heard folks talk about getting it lower. Should I run the wort through slower? (I used a pump to pull it through) Run the water faster? Slower? Find a decent balance?

What’s your water temp?  If it’s no cooler than 85 then you are not going to get any cooler. cheers, -Alan

Response:

This mght seem counter-intuitive, but in a centrifugal pump, the load actually decreases if you shut off the inlet.  It’s especially noticable with a series universal motor like in a vacuum cleaner.  Try closing off the suction side–it speeds up.  That means the load has decreased.  This is partly due to decreased windage from the vacuum, but also because it’s not really doing any work aside from windage losses. The problems with having a low suction head on a pump have to do with cavitation, which is bad for the impeller and bad for the liquid, in our case.  Damax is using a flexible impeller pump from the hardware store, so the rules are a bit different.  Although cavitation can occur in any case, in his pump I doubt he’d be able to pull enough vacuum.  I’d say for that kind of pump, it wouldn’t matter too much where you take the suction. Regards, Mike Sharp – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Faster water flow will increase heat removal.  So will slower wort flow. One thing I believe is important is when using a pump is to ‘Push’ the wort instead of ‘Pulling’ it through the chiller.  When the pump is after the chiller it can create a vacuum which can hurt the pump in the end. How so? Where is the vacuum created? Reason I’m pulling, is its a cheap $10 pump from home depot, not rated to handle 212 degree liquid. Worse case scenario… but a new $10 pump Pulling through pumps can cause cavitation and reduce pumping efficiency. It is the same reason you can’t suck water up 34 feet, but pushing is no problem. In addition, it’s pretty bad for the pump’s motor.  Most pumps like this say to never restrict the input side (whether you install a valve, or are pulling through tubing that is placing a resistance on the liquid) and to always restrict the output side if you want to control flow.  If the $10 pump from home depot you’re using is driven by a hand drill, then it’s probably putting a lot of stress on the drill. I don’t know if it’s a big deal or not with that type of pump… but that’s the theory anyway. John. —                            *** John P. Kolesar ***                          *** Valley Mead Brewery ***

Response:

That’s a very common misconception.  People think that if the cooling water comes out hotter on the other end, that it’s working better. Unfortunately that’s backwards.  The faster the flow, and the colder the water is when it exits, the more it is chilling your wort.

Part of the problem is the definition of "efficiency".  If you were to look in a standard engineering text (I’ve looked at several in my life… you’d find that indeed the goal is to minimize the amount of cooling water to get a given output temp.  But this doesn’t matter to a normal homebrewer the way it matters to someone designing an industrial power plant or something. Turn the water up all the way.  Unless you like in the desert this is the most "efficient" way to cool the wort. –arne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John. —                            *** John P. Kolesar ***                          *** Valley Mead Brewery ***

Response:

Heat transfer is so interesting because there are so many variables…heat transfer area, material of construction, Reynolds number, fluid heat capacity…and on and on.  The key is to optimize the available variables based on your system.  Maximize your cooling water flow and then increase your wort flow until you receive an appropriate temperature. Ok… main reason I asked is I THOUGHT I read somewhere that if you actually SLOW your cooling water, it’ll cool better… maybe because it has more time to absorb heat. Didnt make sense to me… and from whats come out on this thread… guess whoever posted that was wrong, or I read it backwards.

That’s a very common misconception.  People think that if the cooling water comes out hotter on the other end, that it’s working better. Unfortunately that’s backwards.  The faster the flow, and the colder the water is when it exits, the more it is chilling your wort. John. —                            *** John P. Kolesar ***                          *** Valley Mead Brewery ***

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Faster water flow will increase heat removal.  So will slower wort flow. One thing I believe is important is when using a pump is to ‘Push’ the wort instead of ‘Pulling’ it through the chiller.  When the pump is after the chiller it can create a vacuum which can hurt the pump in the end. How so? Where is the vacuum created? Reason I’m pulling, is its a cheap $10 pump from home depot, not rated to handle 212 degree liquid. Worse case scenario… but a new $10 pump Pulling through pumps can cause cavitation and reduce pumping efficiency. It is the same reason you can’t suck water up 34 feet, but pushing is no problem.

In addition, it’s pretty bad for the pump’s motor.  Most pumps like this say to never restrict the input side (whether you install a valve, or are pulling through tubing that is placing a resistance on the liquid) and to always restrict the output side if you want to control flow.  If the $10 pump from home depot you’re using is driven by a hand drill, then it’s probably putting a lot of stress on the drill. I don’t know if it’s a big deal or not with that type of pump… but that’s the theory anyway. John. —                            *** John P. Kolesar ***                          *** Valley Mead Brewery ***

Response:

You read right but the comment was taken out of context. The effeciency of slower water flow may be true but the rate of cooling increases with the rate of water flow and decreases with the rate of wort flow. Let’s face it, after a day of brewing, saving a gallon of water or two is not on our minds. We want to get the yeast pitched and everything cleaned up so we can crack that last homebrew before bed time.  :^) Burp, -Dan — Replace nospam with msn to email me.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Heat transfer is so interesting because there are so many variables…heat transfer area, material of construction, Reynolds number, fluid heat capacity…and on and on.  The key is to optimize the available variables based on your system.  Maximize your cooling water flow and then increase your wort flow until you receive an appropriate temperature. Ok… main reason I asked is I THOUGHT I read somewhere that if you actually SLOW your cooling water, it’ll cool better… maybe because it has more time to absorb heat. Didnt make sense to me… and from whats come out on this thread… guess whoever posted that was wrong, or I read it backwards. Thanks for the info, all.

Response:

Heat transfer is so interesting because there are so many variables…heat transfer area, material of construction, Reynolds number, fluid heat capacity…and on and on.  The key is to optimize the available variables based on your system.  Maximize your cooling water flow and then increase your wort flow until you receive an appropriate temperature.

Ok… main reason I asked is I THOUGHT I read somewhere that if you actually SLOW your cooling water, it’ll cool better… maybe because it has more time to absorb heat. Didnt make sense to me… and from whats come out on this thread… guess whoever posted that was wrong, or I read it backwards. Thanks for the info, all.

Response:

If your water was more than a few degrees cooler than 85 F, there is a good chance that you were running the wort in the same direction as the water. This is an easy error.

Almost started that way, realized I had it backwards, and fixed it

Response:

Faster water flow will increase heat removal.  So will slower wort flow. One thing I believe is important is when using a pump is to ‘Push’ the wort instead of ‘Pulling’ it through the chiller.  When the pump is after the chiller it can create a vacuum which can hurt the pump in the end. How so? Where is the vacuum created? Reason I’m pulling, is its a cheap $10 pump from home depot, not rated to handle 212 degree liquid. Worse case scenario… but a new $10 pump

Pulling through pumps can cause cavitation and reduce pumping efficiency. It is the same reason you can’t suck water up 34 feet, but pushing is no problem. — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com Free shipping for orders greater than $35 and East of the Mighty Miss. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Heat transfer is so interesting because there are so many variables…heat transfer area, material of construction, Reynolds number, fluid heat capacity…and on and on.  The key is to optimize the available variables based on your system.  Maximize your cooling water flow and then increase your wort flow until you receive an appropriate temperature. I can get 13 gallons per minute by tapping into my home’s main water supply line.  I can use this flow to cool 5 gallons of wort to within 15