Brewing Master

Question:

Any opinion about silica gel?

I tried it a few times but didn’t get the same results as I do with Poly-Clar.  I wonder if silica doesn’t work on some other hazing component of beer… It had little or no effect on my beer, but others report success with it. Isinglas is another fining that I haven’t had luck with. Robert A. 5 gallon "ball-lock" Kegs   – $12.00 See them at….http://www.calweb.com/~robertac

Response:

<<…Re-reading your post showed that you had written adsorb….a typo if… When I was an undergrad in chemical engineering my Mass Transfer prof. pounded us with the differences between adsorption and absorption….what a difference one letter makes in the action involved…  <<I am curious your distinction as per "finings".  Isn’t anything we use to clear a beer a fining? I have never had any success with Isinglas…. do you have any pointers on using it sucessfully? Finings to me are isinglass, and mysterious ‘auxillary finings’ which I recall are modified isinglass finings and sodium metabisulphite (which work alongside regular isinglass). It’s a bit voodoo to me, but isinglass must be made up in a pH 2.5-3.5 solution (Vickers, Siebel Biofine at 0.5% solution) or pH 4-8 (Siebel Clearfine at 1% solution); the water is prepared with a mild fruit acid (malic, citric, tartaric). 2-6 g/hectoliter is the add’n rate (20-60 ppm) based on weight of finings added. Isinglass is tricky in small volumes. Smallest volume I’ve ever done was a firkin cask…but the stuff works in 3 days or so in making clear beer. Gelatin is often called a fining (use 4-6 g/hectoliter) and takes 5 days; never used it as the stuff used by brewers is not Kosher and I follow Kosher rules. Still, if you are OK about using it, here’s what Siebel instructs: you must slurry up the gelatin (rate: 1 lb per 2 gal cold water) and then quickly add 18 gal of very hot water per lb gelatin and then stir until dissolved. Just scale down the quantities involved to get your rate. Silica hydrogel/xerogel….an adsorbent specific to mid-weight proteins (half of the protein+tannin = chill-haze equation). 30 min contact time is adequate for haze stability…I expect this takes longer to settle with filtration than larger-sized  Polyclar.

Response:

Any opinion about silica gel? PC is NOT fast acting because it takes some time to settle out itself. It does not "absorb" tannins, it attracts tannins electrically, and binds to them. Pre-mixing with water is not necessary. Anyone who adds Poly-clar to their beer, then draws a pint only an hour later is going to be very disappointed with the results. Experiments have shown me that PC will not clear a beer any more than "time" will, but can clear a beer in days instead of weeks.   Robert A. 5 gallon "ball-lock" Kegs   – $12.00 See them at….http://www.calweb.com/~robertac

swap net.banet to reply via e-mail

Response:

I thought I said "adsorb" which is characterized as an electrical attraction (pos. charge  tannins adsorb to neg. charged PVPP). If I said "absorb", which I did not mean to (did I??)…then you’re correct in stating I was wrong to call it absorption.

No, you are correct. Re-reading your post showed that you had written adsorb.  I’ll wager I wasn’t the only one who missed that. I’ll further wager that I am not the only one who would have considered it a typo even if I had seen it. PVPP (ISP’s Polyclar range) is normally filtered out, not gravity-dropped. Finings, such as isinglass, is the best way to make clear beer without filtration. Go ahead though and use it as a fining if you want; but chill-haze protection is accomplished in 15 minutes. Lots of European brewers use Polyclar 10, a regenerable Polyclar, and 15 min is an acceptable contact time in an all-malt beer.

You didn’t mention any of this in your original post.  The vast majority of homebrewers do not filter and those of us who use poly clar must wait for it to settle out. Wether the plastic adsorbs, (attracts), and binds with the tannins in 15 min or 15 seconds is rather moot to the average homebrewer who needs to wait a few days for the PC to precipitate.  I am curious your distinction as per "finings".  Isn’t anything we use to clear a beer a fining?  I have never had any success with Isinglas…. do you have any pointers on using it sucessfully? Robert A. 5 gallon "ball-lock" Kegs   – $12.00 See them at….http://www.calweb.com/~robertac

Response:

<<10-15 lbs per 31 gallons ? What planet are _you_ on ? Oops…Good point…I meant "per 100 barrels"!  Commercial U.S. brewers typically use 5 lbs/100 U.S. barrel as well as 15 lbs/100 bbl silica hydrogel in an all-malt beer (introduced by separate feeds into beer before it is final filtered). Thank Goodness the ISP rep is too busy calling on large breweries to read USENET postings or he would track me down…

<<PC is NOT fast acting because it takes some time to settle out itself. It does not "absorb" tannins, it attracts tannins electrically, and binds to them. Pre-mixing with water is not necessary I thought I said "adsorb" which is characterized as an electrical attraction (pos. charge  tannins adsorb to neg. charged PVPP). If I said "absorb", which I did not mean to (did I??)…then you’re correct in stating I was wrong to call it absorption. PVPP (ISP’s Polyclar range) is normally filtered out, not gravity-dropped. Finings, such as isinglass, is the best way to make clear beer without filtration. Go ahead though and use it as a fining if you want; but chill-haze protection is accomplished in 15 minutes. Lots of European brewers use Polyclar 10, a regenerable Polyclar, and 15 min is an acceptable contact time in an all-malt beer.

Response:

10-15 lbs per 31 gallons ? What planet are _you_ on ? I use between 1/2 and 1 oz of polyclar per 5 gallons. You can put it into the fermenter and rack ontop of it or dissolve it in sterile water and add it. I just used it for bottles and in addition to chill-proofing the beer, the yeast sediment seemed to be much more solidly attached to the bottom. Polyclar is very fast-acting and needs brief contact, an hour is fine. It is not a fining agent; it adsorbs tannins. Longer contact than an hour won’t give you any more stability. Just mix it well in warm water. A dose rate above 10-15 lbs/U.S. barrel (31 gal) is the max…any more will not give you any better results.

– James Tomlinson Give a man a beer, and he wastes an hour. But teach a man how to brew, and he wastes a lifetime!

Response:

Polyclar is very fast-acting and needs brief contact, an hour is fine. It is not a fining agent; it adsorbs tannins. Longer contact than an hour won’t give you any more stability. Just mix it well in warm water. A dose rate above 10-15 lbs/U.S. barrel (31 gal) is the max…any more will not give you any better results.

PC is NOT fast acting because it takes some time to settle out itself. It does not "absorb" tannins, it attracts tannins electrically, and binds to them. Pre-mixing with water is not necessary. Anyone who adds Poly-clar to their beer, then draws a pint only an hour later is going to be very disappointed with the results. Experiments have shown me that PC will not clear a beer any more than "time" will, but can clear a beer in days instead of weeks.   Robert A. 5 gallon "ball-lock" Kegs   – $12.00 See them at….http://www.calweb.com/~robertac

Response:

could somebody please tell me the proper way to use polyclar? should it be boiled before adding to beer? doug -doug ^. .^ ( @ )

Response:

could somebody please tell me the proper way to use polyclar? should it be boiled before adding to beer? doug

Doug, Stir it into cold, boiled water and stir it into the beer.  It may foam up, by the way, so be careful.  Let it sit for a few days. You’ll see it clear in layers. John

Response:

could somebody please tell me the proper way to use polyclar? should it be boiled before adding to beer? doug

This is how I have used it (poly-clar), for the last 200 batches…. Sprinkle two teaspoons PC into sanitized, C02 purged carboy. Rack beer from secondary carboy on top of PC. Allow to sit for at least 3 days, 6 is better, 14 is excellent. Do not boil the PC.  It is plastic and does not attract nor support bacteria. Robert A. 5 gallon "ball-lock" Kegs   – $12.00 See them at….http://www.calweb.com/~robertac

Response:

Polyclar is very fast-acting and needs brief contact, an hour is fine. It is not a fining agent; it adsorbs tannins. Longer contact than an hour won’t give you any more stability. Just mix it well in warm water. A dose rate above 10-15 lbs/U.S. barrel (31 gal) is the max…any more will not give you any better results.

Response:

Polyclar is very fast-acting and needs brief contact, an hour is fine. It is not a fining agent; it adsorbs tannins. Longer contact than an hour won’t give you any more stability. Just mix it well in warm water. A dose rate above 10-15 lbs/U.S. barrel (31 gal) is the max…any more will not give you any better results.

Shouldn’t on give it time to settle out? What is the exact meaning of fining agent? As I recall it is supposed to take care of chill haze. /Lars

Response: