Brewing Master

Question:

As far as I know you need to prime at the end if you want your beer carbonated.  If you don’t want to use sugar then use the same amount of malt.

Actually, you need to use more DME than sugar because DME is less fermentable than straight sugar. I beleive 3/4 cup sugar equals 1 1/4 cup DME, am I right there? I can’t quite remember off the top of my head. -Joel

Response:

As far as I know you need to prime at the end if you want your beer carbonated.  If you don’t want to use sugar then use the same amount of malt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi. I’m starting my first all grain brew next week. Pale Ale. I’m interested in bottling without the use of priming sugars. How to? I dont want anything but barley, hops, water and yeast in my beer if it can be helped. And if i DO have to i don’t want to sweeten the beer any or introduce ethanol. Any help here will be greatly appreciated. Is there a way to get good carbonation without priming or am i just a big wishfull thinkin fool. Recipie (my own) if it helps: 5 Gallons Finished OG: shold be 1.051 FG should be near 1.012 5.0% Alcohol by vol  (god i hope) 1.5 lb. American crystal 20L 2.0 lb. Dextrine malt (Cara-Pils) 5.5 lb. Belgian Pilsner 2.0 lb. American Vienna .3 oz. Liberty (5% AA, 60 min.) .1 oz. Mt. Hood (6% AA, 60 min.) .4 oz. Hallertauer (4.5% AA, 60 min.) .3 oz. Liberty (5% AA, 20 min.) .3 oz. Mt. Hood (6% AA, 20 min.) .3 oz. Hallertauer (4.5% AA, 20 min.) .3 oz. Liberty (5% AA, 7 min.) .2 oz. Mt. Hood (6% AA, 7 min.) .5 oz. Hallertauer (4.5% AA, 7 min.) 25 IBU WYEAST American Ale 1056 British Ale 1335

Response:

Good to hear Gary, Thanks. Stew – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I always save a quart of wort to prime with.  I think that you should not make this more difficult than it really is. One quart canning jar, put a lid on it, put it in the refrig, it will still be good for at least three weeks.  I know, I know, some people are prob saying – that’ll go bad in a couple of weeks.  And yes twice I have waited too long before bottling and I opened the wort up and seen mold and I did not use it.  I just waited to bottle until I had made another batch of beer. I always like my carbonation, sometimes the carbonation is on the low side, sometimes on the high (not too high), but I’ve never had bottle bombs with wort priming.  Never, never, never.  When I would sugar prime, I had bottle bombs at least twice.  I’ve done maybe 25 batches sugar primed and 35 wort primed. BTW I always add all my hops at 60 minutes, I think people say that is the German way of doing it.  I like how my beers taste and smell, so I always add hops this way. Gary Keep on Rollin’ my old buddy you’re moving way too slow.  Jack Straw Dead Hi Mike,     Thanks, i can understand your concern over the closeness of the hops i’ve selected. That’s why i selected them (early in my learning/planning stages). I’m also growing the same varieties that will hopefully will allow me to use home grown hops in a few months. My thinking was that no matter how the growing went (low yield to genecide), i could get something realy close to product 1 using home grown hops. Not the moste logical path you can see but i’m not normal anyway. As for the yeast. Thank you for bringing this up. I selected them for what they would bring i hope. BUT, you made me look, and somehow i ordered/recieved the wrong (1039 instead of 1335), wyeast. So….jeeze i don’t know if i’ve got time/cash to get more or what i’m gunna do. . Can the wort in mason jars to save . Zamuel did a pretty good job describing Krausening.  You need to add back about 20% of an actively fermenting wort. I personally feel this could be a dangerous bottling situation, but might lend itself to kegging faily easily. Then you would just push the beer using CO2, or if you really did not want to dissolve any outside CO2 into the beer, use Nitrogen.  There is also "beer gas", it is 75% Nitrogen, 25% CO2. Now the real questions become, why use two yeasts, and why so many little bitty hop additions?  How will you know which yeast is providing the desired characteristics? On the hops, why so small additions to end up with 25 IBU. The detectability of hops variation is about 5 IBU. Liberty and Mt Hood are very similar to Hallertau, so why not just use Hallertau to get your desired AA content. Cheers, Mike

Response:

I’m going back to the comfort-zone of a measure-spoon of caster sugar until I can figure out how to guarantee proper mixing without aeration during bulk-priming. And when I get that right I’ll have a go with the light malt again. I guess, Glenn, if you are planning an all-grain, you may have worked out effective bulk-priming techniques already?

I make a syrup out of my corn sugar & some boiling water, then pour it into the bottom of a sanitized carboy.  I then siphon my beer from the secondary carboy into this new carboy, ensuring that the end of the siphon is placed right at the bottom of the receiving carboy.  The flow of the beer mixes with the sugar syrup and ensures an even level of carbonation for the finished product. I siphon the primed beer into bottles using a bottle filler as well. Yes, I know that’s a lot of siphoning (three or four times per batch), but if you are sure to sanitize properly, should be no problem.  I get very little if any sediment in my bottles using this method as well. I’ve had even carbonation in every one of my bottles except one, which may have been improperly capped, as it was totally flat. Kelvin

Response:

I always save a quart of wort to prime with.  I think that you should not make this more difficult than it really is. One quart canning jar, put a lid on it, put it in the refrig, it will still be good for at least three weeks.  I know, I know, some people are prob saying – that’ll go bad in a couple of weeks.  And yes twice I have waited too long before bottling and I opened the wort up and seen mold and I did not use it.  I just waited to bottle until I had made another batch of beer. I always like my carbonation, sometimes the carbonation is on the low side, sometimes on the high (not too high), but I’ve never had bottle bombs with wort priming.  Never, never, never.  When I would sugar prime, I had bottle bombs at least twice.  I’ve done maybe 25 batches sugar primed and 35 wort primed. BTW I always add all my hops at 60 minutes, I think people say that is the German way of doing it.  I like how my beers taste and smell, so I always add hops this way. Gary Keep on Rollin’ my old buddy you’re moving way too slow.  Jack Straw Dead – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Mike,     Thanks, i can understand your concern over the closeness of the hops i’ve selected. That’s why i selected them (early in my learning/planning stages). I’m also growing the same varieties that will hopefully will allow me to use home grown hops in a few months. My thinking was that no matter how the growing went (low yield to genecide), i could get something realy close to product 1 using home grown hops. Not the moste logical path you can see but i’m not normal anyway. As for the yeast. Thank you for bringing this up. I selected them for what they would bring i hope. BUT, you made me look, and somehow i ordered/recieved the wrong (1039 instead of 1335), wyeast. So….jeeze i don’t know if i’ve got time/cash to get more or what i’m gunna do. . Can the wort in mason jars to save . Zamuel did a pretty good job describing Krausening.  You need to add back about 20% of an actively fermenting wort. I personally feel this could be a dangerous bottling situation, but might lend itself to kegging faily easily. Then you would just push the beer using CO2, or if you really did not want to dissolve any outside CO2 into the beer, use Nitrogen.  There is also "beer gas", it is 75% Nitrogen, 25% CO2. Now the real questions become, why use two yeasts, and why so many little bitty hop additions?  How will you know which yeast is providing the desired characteristics? On the hops, why so small additions to end up with 25 IBU. The detectability of hops variation is about 5 IBU. Liberty and Mt Hood are very similar to Hallertau, so why not just use Hallertau to get your desired AA content. Cheers, Mike

Response:

Good to hear Glenn. Thanks – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] By the way, can anyone confirm the  gyle quantity formula from Papazian? or what ever the formula is called. Someone posted it on another site saying it was: Quarts required = (12 x gallons) / (OG-1 x 1000) I have used that equation, and I think it works pretty well.  (For a 5-gallon batch, the equation simply becomes 60/(last 2 digits of OG), just for your convenience.)  It results in a nice lively carbonation. I have found that the level of carbonation using this method is a little high for a pale ale or a bitter.  Give the above equation a shot and adjust the amount next time if you feel it’s too high for your taste.

Response:

One last question. this is just your canned/bottled wort correct? Someone mentioned actively fermenting, that’s the first i’ve heard of fermenting being under way when you ad the wort. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] By the way, can anyone confirm the  gyle quantity formula from Papazian? or what ever the formula is called. Someone posted it on another site saying it was: Quarts required = (12 x gallons) / (OG-1 x 1000) I have used that equation, and I think it works pretty well.  (For a 5-gallon batch, the equation simply becomes 60/(last 2 digits of OG), just for your convenience.)  It results in a nice lively carbonation. I have found that the level of carbonation using this method is a little high for a pale ale or a bitter.  Give the above equation a shot and adjust the amount next time if you feel it’s too high for your taste.

Response:

The best way to mix in sugar for bulk priming is to pour the sugar solution into the bottling bucker BEFORE siphoning the beer into it.  A little swirl at the beginning of the siphon ensures even distribution as the solution gets mixed in with the flow.  There is usually no need to stir the beer. —  Dan Listermann Check out our new E-tail site at http://www.listermann.com Take a look at the anti-telemarketer forum.  It is my new hobby!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sugars really won’t change the flavor perceptably, except refined white sugar, which can/will give a cidery taste. From what I’ve read here in the ng, the issue with sugar and cidery tastes is not because the white sugar MAKES cidery tastes, but if you make a brew with more sugar, you will be using less malt, the resulting brew will be thinner and less flavorful, and the natural fruity flavours developed in the brew will be "less hidden" behind a good malt. So it’s more a case of white sugar is incapable of covering the cidery tastes. Papazian writes something like "white sugar is fine to bottle with because it’s quality is too small to make any difference and it’s easier to get into the bottles because it’s less sticky and will not clump around the neck." Or something like that. I tried bulk-priming with dried light malt, but it’s clear I didn’t use enough because that brew is very light on the carbonation and it’s had at least 6 weeks in the bottle so I think it’s maxed out. I’ll have to use more next time. Last week I tried bulk-priming a pale ale with dissolved sugar, but when I measured the gravity of the last few drops it was approx 1.050 which is not bad for a brew that started at 1.35 and stopped at 1.008. Obviously I didn’t get proper mixing so dammit I had to crack open 50+ bottles and gently pour them back into the fermenter, otherwise I’d have some bottles which come out flat, and other bottles blowing like hand-grenades. I could barely see for the tears streaming down my face. Opening 50 bottles and not drinking one of them. Shite. I’m going back to the comfort-zone of a measure-spoon of caster sugar until I can figure out how to guarantee proper mixing without aeration during bulk-priming. And when I get that right I’ll have a go with the light malt again. I guess, Glenn, if you are planning an all-grain, you may have worked out effective bulk-priming techniques already? Some say there is a texture difference to the bubbles between priming with corn sugar and dry malt extract. I’ve read that but not experienced it yet ;-( That’s said to be due to the extra sticky stuff in the malt vs. the plain-ness of the sugar.

Response:

[snip] By the way, can anyone confirm the  gyle quantity formula from Papazian? or what ever the formula is called. Someone posted it on another site saying it was: Quarts required = (12 x gallons) / (OG-1 x 1000)

I have used that equation, and I think it works pretty well.  (For a 5-gallon batch, the equation simply becomes 60/(last 2 digits of OG), just for your convenience.)  It results in a nice lively carbonation. I have found that the level of carbonation using this method is a little high for a pale ale or a bitter.  Give the above equation a shot and adjust the amount next time if you feel it’s too high for your taste.

Response:

Sugars really won’t change the flavor perceptably, except refined white sugar, which can/will give a cidery taste.

From what I’ve read here in the ng, the issue with sugar and cidery tastes is not because the white sugar MAKES cidery tastes, but if you make a brew with more sugar, you will be using less malt, the resulting brew will be thinner and less flavorful, and the natural fruity flavours developed in the brew will be "less hidden" behind a good malt. So it’s more a case of white sugar is incapable of covering the cidery tastes. Papazian writes something like "white sugar is fine to bottle with because it’s quality is too small to make any difference and it’s easier to get into the bottles because it’s less sticky and will not clump around the neck." Or something like that. I tried bulk-priming with dried light malt, but it’s clear I didn’t use enough because that brew is very light on the carbonation and it’s had at least 6 weeks in the bottle so I think it’s maxed out. I’ll have to use more next time. Last week I tried bulk-priming a pale ale with dissolved sugar, but when I measured the gravity of the last few drops it was approx 1.050 which is not bad for a brew that started at 1.35 and stopped at 1.008. Obviously I didn’t get proper mixing so dammit I had to crack open 50+ bottles and gently pour them back into the fermenter, otherwise I’d have some bottles which come out flat, and other bottles blowing like hand-grenades. I could barely see for the tears streaming down my face. Opening 50 bottles and not drinking one of them. Shite. I’m going back to the comfort-zone of a measure-spoon of caster sugar until I can figure out how to guarantee proper mixing without aeration during bulk-priming. And when I get that right I’ll have a go with the light malt again. I guess, Glenn, if you are planning an all-grain, you may have worked out effective bulk-priming techniques already? Some say there is a texture difference to the bubbles between priming with corn sugar and dry malt extract.

I’ve read that but not experienced it yet ;-( That’s said to be due to the extra sticky stuff in the malt vs. the plain-ness of the sugar.

Response:

Sugars really won’t change the flavor perceptably, except refined white sugar, which can/will give a cidery taste. Corn sugar won’t, because it is a refined version of the sugar in the mash.  Some (including me) say there is a texture difference to the bubbles between priming with corn sugar and dry malt extract. The dme tends, I think, to give the bubbles a less fizzy texture.  You can’t say "its best not to use sugars" because it is sugars that are being consumed by the yeast to make the beer!  "It is best not to use some sugars" would be more accurate. Krausening will work, but I would echo the concerns that you could be making bottle bombs. Also, if the beer ends up severely overcarbonated, you will really lose a lot of enjoyment of the beer. I guess I understand what you are trying to do, and it can be done, but the question is, is it worth it to you?  If ‘purity’ is the goal, I would repeat what I said before, prime with dme.  You didn’t grow the barley, or malt it yourselft, so why worry about someone else having mashed it for you? One other point I would make. All grain can be a bit confusing, and it adds a lot of variables to your brewing.  After you do your first batch, you will have lots of questions about if you did something right or why it came out a certain way. With your unconventional yeast and hops choices, and the no extra sugar thing you are adding even more variables. Perhaps you should test the recipe in stages, and only change one thing at a time. That way you can isolate whether or not something has a posative, negative, or negligable effect on the product. To each his own, though. Have fun. -Joel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Bregent,     First let me say thanks to you, and all who are helping me with this. It was a bad assumption on my part that any priming sugars would impart sweetness. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they changed the flavor to some degree.  That, I guess is my fear. As it is, I can only hope that the ingredients I’ve selected will formulate the beer I’m aiming for. I started asking this because I had read somewhere (I cant find it again), an article written by someone who insisted that it’s best not to use sugars especially corn sugars. And of course I cant remember why, but it made technical sense at the time. Priming with a sugar may end up being better, heck, a new grain bill may end up being better too, I’m just aiming to do without for this batch. I’m also guessing that even though some of the sugars in wort are not fermentable, there won’t be any more than the original amount since it is taken from the original volume.     You also made a good point about the mixing of yeasts. I hope that it brings some of each of the yeasts qualities. Hopefuly better than 80/20 or 20/80, otherwise i’m not too concerned. One of the big points I’m hoping for with the yeasts is the dryness that both are supposed to impart. Hopefuly they won’t formulate some freakeish outcome. I wasn’t expecting any chance of this, I’ve seen other recipes with more yeasts than this one. Any horror stories? Sincerely, although I’m defending my choices more than a little, don’t hesitate to smack me down, I dont want to make horror in a bottle.     Please don’t take offense at my reply to the purist comment. I’m only trying to make what I would like in a beer. Using all available info. I can tell from reading here and just about anywhere that priming sugars are the main and widely accepted means, and is why I was begging for how-to info on bottling without. Info on it seemed to be scarce. By the way, can anyone confirm the  gyle quantity formula from Papazian? or what ever the formula is called. Someone posted it on another site saying it was: Quarts required = (12 x gallons) / (OG-1 x 1000) Stew Thanks folks, yeah, i’m a purist wannabe anyway. You all have my sincere thanks. Well, I think we’re all purists to some degree. Is there some reason that you feel that beer made with sugar is not as pure, or is inferior to those made without? Many traditional ales from UK and Belgium are made with sugar and I use it in several of my British ales. You also had a concern about adding sweetness. Since wort is not 100% fermentable, priming with gyle will add more sweetness than sugar, although the amount would be very low. That brewday wort answer poses another question. Has anyone had success storing some of the same wort for later priming? You could store it in a sanitized jar and keep it for a few days. The safest way is to pressure can it; it will last a long time.

Response:

Hi Bregent,     First let me say thanks to you, and all who are helping me with this. It was a bad assumption on my part that any priming sugars would impart sweetness. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they changed the flavor to some degree.  That, I guess is my fear. As it is, I can only hope that the ingredients I’ve selected will formulate the beer I’m aiming for. I started asking this because I had read somewhere (I cant find it again), an article written by someone who insisted that it’s best not to use sugars especially corn sugars. And of course I cant remember why, but it made technical sense at the time. Priming with a sugar may end up being better, heck, a new grain bill may end up being better too, I’m just aiming to do without for this batch. I’m also guessing that even though some of the sugars in wort are not fermentable, there won’t be any more than the original amount since it is taken from the original volume.     You also made a good point about the mixing of yeasts. I hope that it brings some of each of the yeasts qualities. Hopefuly better than 80/20 or 20/80, otherwise i’m not too concerned. One of the big points I’m hoping for with the yeasts is the dryness that both are supposed to impart. Hopefuly they won’t formulate some freakeish outcome. I wasn’t expecting any chance of this, I’ve seen other recipes with more yeasts than this one. Any horror stories? Sincerely, although I’m defending my choices more than a little, don’t hesitate to smack me down, I dont want to make horror in a bottle.     Please don’t take offense at my reply to the purist comment. I’m only trying to make what I would like in a beer. Using all available info. I can tell from reading here and just about anywhere that priming sugars are the main and widely accepted means, and is why I was begging for how-to info on bottling without. Info on it seemed to be scarce. By the way, can anyone confirm the  gyle quantity formula from Papazian? or what ever the formula is called. Someone posted it on another site saying it was: Quarts required = (12 x gallons) / (OG-1 x 1000) Stew – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks folks, yeah, i’m a purist wannabe anyway. You all have my sincere thanks. Well, I think we’re all purists to some degree. Is there some reason that you feel that beer made with sugar is not as pure, or is inferior to those made without? Many traditional ales from UK and Belgium are made with sugar and I use it in several of my British ales. You also had a concern about adding sweetness. Since wort is not 100% fermentable, priming with gyle will add more sweetness than sugar, although the amount would be very low. That brewday wort answer poses another question. Has anyone had success storing some of the same wort for later priming? You could store it in a sanitized jar and keep it for a few days. The safest way is to pressure can it; it will last a long time.

Response:

Now the real questions become, why use two yeasts, and why so many little bitty hop additions?  How will you know which yeast is providing the desired characteristics?

In addition, you have no way to control the yeast population. You could end up with 25% British, 75% 1056, or vice-versa, since different strains adapt and grow at different rates. This is just one more thing to confound your first all grain results.

Response:

Thanks folks, yeah, i’m a purist wannabe anyway. You all have my sincere thanks.

Well, I think we’re all purists to some degree. Is there some reason that you feel that beer made with sugar is not as pure, or is inferior to those made without? Many traditional ales from UK and Belgium are made with sugar and I use it in several of my British ales. You also had a concern about adding sweetness. Since wort is not 100% fermentable, priming with gyle will add more sweetness than sugar, although the amount would be very low. That brewday wort answer poses another question. Has anyone had success storing some of the same wort for later priming?

You could store it in a sanitized jar and keep it for a few days. The safest way is to pressure can it; it will last a long time.

Response:

Hi! Some breweries ferments in a cylidriconical fermenter and closes the topvalve when the fermentation in nearly done. This leads to a higher preassure in the tank at the end of the fermentation. The carbondioxide produced by the yeast at the end stays in the beer. Another way is to transfer the beer to a cornelius keg and pressurise the beer with CO2. After some days the beer will hold a good level of CO2. If you want to use bottles and don