Brewing Master

Question:

I actually cannot think of any brewery I have ever visited that used 6 row malt.  I do know my local brewery uses Canadian 2 row, American 2 row, German Pils malt, and occasionally British Malts.  There can be a decent size variation among all of those.

Maybe they choose to live with or ignore the differences.  It is their malt. — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One other thought, I cannot think of brewery where I have ever seen anyone adjusting a mill, be it large or small. Breweries generally use the same or very few different base malts.  Have you seen them go from American 6 row to English 2-row? Cheers, Mike

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I suspect that on larger, commercial multi-stage mills, gap spacing may be less important?  (Not sure.) On rare occasions, I do find myself wishing I had an adjustable mill… but only when using odd adjuncts.  And in those cases, running the adjuncts through twice seems to do an adequate job.  I’ve never had an issue with any of the "normal" malts, not even 6-row. OTOH, I’ve never been particularly anal about extraction efficiency; I’m perfectly happy with ~70%. — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One other thought, I cannot think of brewery where I have ever seen anyone adjusting a mill, be it large or small. Breweries generally use the same or very few different base malts.  Have you seen them go from American 6 row to English 2-row? — Dan Listermann

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Speaking of which, I just had a more than 36 hour lag after pitching Yeast Lab’s "Whitbread" without rehydrating (had forgotten, it was late and I said "Aw, screw it") into a 1.065 wort. Is this lag typical for this yeast? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s very easy to do more harm than good when rehydrating dried yeast, which I’m assuming is why Dan doesn’t recommend it to beginners.  I wouldn’t call that a relaxed approach, I’d call it concern for the quality of his customer’s brews. John.

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One other thought, I cannot think of brewery where I have ever seen anyone adjusting a mill, be it large or small. Breweries generally use the same or very few different base malts.  Have you seen them go from American 6 row to English 2-row?

I actually cannot think of any brewery I have ever visited that used 6 row malt.  I do know my local brewery uses Canadian 2 row, American 2 row, German Pils malt, and occasionally British Malts.  There can be a decent size variation among all of those. Cheers, Mike

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One other thought, I cannot think of brewery where I have ever seen anyone adjusting a mill, be it large or small. Don’t the large scale mills that professional brewers use contain multiple rollers set in decrementing gaps, and screens inbetween to ensure that no matter what size kernels they feed through, they always end up with perfectly crushed grain at the output?

Some do, some do not. IE, larger particles are fed through successive rollers, smaller particles are routed away from additional rollers to prevent them from being reduced to flour.  I remember seeing a diagram of how one of these mills works, but can’t remember off the top of my head which brewing book it was in. In this case, the "adjustment" is taking place internally depending on which rollers kernels are routed to by the screens.

Some are six roller, some are two roller.  The commercial two roller machine is a set gap in a large diameter roller (bigger than the homebrewer versions). Cheers, Mike

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There is no magic gap, there are only compromise gaps that generally work. Learn to judge the quality of your grist and adjust accordingly.  Almost all the corns should be broken and it should be difficult to find intact corns that are not visually underdeveloped.

The 0.045 spacing of a Schmidling mill works just fine for all barley grains I’ve ever used. I don’t see the attraction in having to fiddle around with the adjustment every time when you can just set it and forget it. Seems to me that there’s very little benefit to adjustability — I’ve certainly never wanted it. ben

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There is no magic gap, there are only compromise gaps that generally work. Learn to judge the quality of your grist and adjust accordingly.  Almost all the corns should be broken and it should be difficult to find intact corns that are not visually underdeveloped.  It is not a hard skill to pick up and it is very forgiving if not "perfect."

Hmm, the precision with which you approach the matter of grain milling is a curious contradiction to your more relaxed approach to the proper introduction of dried yeast into the wort environment. Brian

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There is no magic gap, there are only compromise gaps that generally work. Learn to judge the quality of your grist and adjust accordingly.  Almost all the corns should be broken and it should be difficult to find intact corns that are not visually underdeveloped.  It is not a hard skill to pick up and it is very forgiving if not "perfect." Hmm, the precision with which you approach the matter of grain milling is a curious contradiction to your more relaxed approach to the proper introduction of dried yeast into the wort environment.

It’s very easy to do more harm than good when rehydrating dried yeast, which I’m assuming is why Dan doesn’t recommend it to beginners.  I wouldn’t call that a relaxed approach, I’d call it concern for the quality of his customer’s brews. John. —                            *** John P. Kolesar ***            *** Head Administrator, Monty Python’s Flying Talker ***

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– Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com Hmm, the precision with which you approach the matter of grain milling is a curious contradiction to your more relaxed approach to the proper introduction of dried yeast into the wort environment.

You have to have priorities!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is no magic gap, there are only compromise gaps that generally work. Learn to judge the quality of your grist and adjust accordingly.  Almost all the corns should be broken and it should be difficult to find intact corns that are not visually underdeveloped.  It is not a hard skill to pick up and it is very forgiving if not "perfect." Brian

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The 0.045 spacing of a Schmidling mill works just fine for all barley grains I’ve ever used. I don’t see the attraction in having to fiddle around with the adjustment every time when you can just set it and forget it. Seems to me that there’s very little benefit to adjustability — I’ve certainly never wanted it.

And that is fine for you.  I don’t like grist consistency being such a large variable for brewing.  If you only use a limited kind of malt, don’t mind some malt being over / under crushed sometimes or just don’t want to screw with things, that is OK, but pardon me if I have a hard time believing that American 6 row and English 2 row pale look exactly the same in an unadjusted mill and perform exactly the same as well. Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ben

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[snip] but pardon me if I have a hard time believing that American 6 row and English 2 row pale look exactly the same in an unadjusted mill and perform exactly the same as well.

I recently used some 6 row in a CAP and did not adjust anything. I found no appreciable difference in the grind with the smaller 6 row than with the larger 2 row.  I am certain that with a sieve test there would be differences, but I am not convinced they are significant in the grand scheme of things. I found no appreciable difference in batch efficiency either. So long as you are not making flour, and are crushing the grain instead of grinding it, a single gap setting will most likely suffice for most every grain I have ever encountered. One other thought, I cannot think of brewery where I have ever seen anyone adjusting a mill, be it large or small. Cheers, Mike

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"Dan Listermann" The only reason that I would ever be interested in a compromise gap is if my mill was a pain in the butt to adjust.  None of my mills are, so I evaluate just about every grain I run through. Every grain?  Do you ever get around to making beer?

If adjusting means just twisting a single knob one way or the other, I have plenty of time to brew. — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

One other thought, I cannot think of brewery where I have ever seen anyone adjusting a mill, be it large or small.

Don’t the large scale mills that professional brewers use contain multiple rollers set in decrementing gaps, and screens inbetween to ensure that no matter what size kernels they feed through, they always end up with perfectly crushed grain at the output?  IE, larger particles are fed through successive rollers, smaller particles are routed away from additional rollers to prevent them from being reduced to flour.  I remember seeing a diagram of how one of these mills works, but can’t remember off the top of my head which brewing book it was in. In this case, the "adjustment" is taking place internally depending on which rollers kernels are routed to by the screens. John. —                            *** John P. Kolesar ***            *** Head Administrator, Monty Python’s Flying Talker ***

Response:

One other thought, I cannot think of brewery where I have ever seen anyone adjusting a mill, be it large or small.

Breweries generally use the same or very few different base malts.  Have you seen them go from American 6 row to English 2-row? — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [snip] but pardon me if I have a hard time believing that American 6 row and English 2 row pale look exactly the same in an unadjusted mill and perform exactly the same as well. I recently used some 6 row in a CAP and did not adjust anything. I found no appreciable difference in the grind with the smaller 6 row than with the larger 2 row.  I am certain that with a sieve test there would be differences, but I am not convinced they are significant in the grand scheme of things. I found no appreciable difference in batch efficiency either. So long as you are not making flour, and are crushing the grain instead of grinding it, a single gap setting will most likely suffice for most every grain I have ever encountered. Cheers, Mike

Response:

The real reason you always rant about adjusting is because you weren’t clever enough to imagine that most of the people making beer do not give a twit about evaluating every grain and love a mill that works well without even thinking about the roller spacing.  Over half of the mills we have sold over a period of 12 years have been a "compromise gap" and most of the other half have never been changed because it works so well as shipped.

I’m sure the "Mr. Beer" kits sell in a respectful volume as well and that the majority of people who purchase them are happy with what it does.  That still doesn’t mean that there aren’t homebrewers out there who want something better and/or different. The original poster asked a question about gap measurements.  Dan answered him in a very helpful manner.  Which part of that meant you needed to storm in and act like a jack ass?  (Other than the fact that you always do?) John. —                            *** John P. Kolesar ***            *** Head Administrator, Monty Python’s Flying Talker ***

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Thanks, .045" is the number I was looking for. Mike

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, a gap of around .045" is considered to be a good compromise that works well for most types of malt.  The JSP non-adjustable supposedly has a .045" gap, though I’ve never actually measured it.  The fixed gap seems to work reasonably well for the common malts (2- and 6-row barley malt, wheat malt, rye malt); unmalted adjuncts generally need to be run through the mill twice to get a good crush. — Has anyone measured the distance between their rollers and what the spec is for the most efficient grind? Just curious as to what others have. I haven’t measured the distance yet, but am planning on it for record keeping purposes.

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Hey Jack, I thought I’d gotten away from this argument when I quit reading the "Which grain mill is best" thread. This guy just asked for some measurements (which you gave, thank) not a rematch of a Tyson fight (ear biting included). Easy man. We’re all here doing the same thing. RDWHAHB. Cameron

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Dan Listermann" The only reason that I would ever be interested in a compromise gap is if my mill was a pain in the butt to adjust.  None of my mills are, so I evaluate just about every grain I run through. Every grain?  Do you ever get around to making beer? The real reason you always rant about adjusting is because you weren’t clever enough to imagine that most of the people making beer do not give a twit about evaluating every grain and love a mill that works well without even thinking about the roller spacing.  Over half of the mills we have sold over a period of 12 years have been a "compromise gap" and most of the other half have never been changed because it works so well as shipped. In all that time we have "upgraded" exactly one fixed mill to adjustable. So you can rant all you wish about adjusting and whine about how hard your competitors’ are to adjust but you are just whistling in the wind. The real answer to the question is that most people (me included) weigh all our grains into a single bucket and mill them en masse.   This makes worrying about the ideal gap for different grains much like arguing about how many angels can dance on a pinhead.    Of course, we pick up a hand full and "evaluate" it just to look clever but the REAL answer….. .045" has worked well for over ten thousand fixed mills and most people use that as a starting point for adjustable mills. js PHOTO OF THE WEEK http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm HOME: Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Sausage, Videos http://user.mc.net/arf

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Let the games begin….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Dan Listermann" The only reason that I would ever be interested in a compromise gap is if my mill was a pain in the butt to adjust.  None of my mills are, so I evaluate just about every grain I run through. Every grain?  Do you ever get around to making beer? The real reason you always rant about adjusting is because you weren’t clever enough to imagine that most of the people making beer do not give a twit about evaluating every grain and love a mill that works well without even thinking about the roller spacing.  Over half of the mills we have sold over a period of 12 years have been a "compromise gap" and most of the other half have never been changed because it works so well as shipped. In all that time we have "upgraded" exactly one fixed mill to adjustable. So you can rant all you wish about adjusting and whine about how hard your competitors’ are to adjust but you are just whistling in the wind. The real answer to the question is that most people (me included) weigh all our grains into a single bucket and mill them en masse.   This makes worrying about the ideal gap for different grains much like arguing about how many angels can dance on a pinhead.    Of course, we pick up a hand full and "evaluate" it just to look clever but the REAL answer….. .045" has worked well for over ten thousand fixed mills and most people use that as a starting point for adjustable mills. js PHOTO OF THE WEEK http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm HOME: Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Sausage, Videos http://user.mc.net/arf

Response:

"Dan Listermann" The only reason that I would ever be interested in a compromise gap is if my mill was a pain in the butt to adjust.  None of my mills are, so I evaluate just about every grain I run through.

Every grain?  Do you ever get around to making beer? The real reason you always rant about adjusting is because you weren’t clever enough to imagine that most of the people making beer do not give a twit about evaluating every grain and love a mill that works well without even thinking about the roller spacing.  Over half of the mills we have sold over a period of 12 years have been a "compromise gap" and most of the other half have never been changed because it works so well as shipped. In all that time we have "upgraded" exactly one fixed mill to adjustable. So you can rant all you wish about adjusting and whine about how hard your competitors’ are to adjust but you are just whistling in the wind. The real answer to the question is that most people (me included) weigh all our grains into a single bucket and mill them en masse.   This makes worrying about the ideal gap for different grains much like arguing about how many angels can dance on a pinhead.    Of course, we pick up a hand full and "evaluate" it just to look clever but the REAL answer….. .045" has worked well for over ten thousand fixed mills and most people use that as a starting point for adjustable mills. js PHOTO OF THE WEEK http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm HOME: Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Sausage, Videos http://user.mc.net/arf

Response:

Has anyone measured the distance between their rollers and what the spec is for the most efficient grind? Just curious as to what others have. I haven’t measured the distance yet, but am planning on it for record keeping purposes.

Are you making gaps or grist? There is no magic gap, there are only compromise gaps that generally work. Learn to judge the quality of your grist and adjust accordingly.  Almost all the corns should be broken and it should be difficult to find intact corns that are not visually underdeveloped.  It is not a hard skill to pick up and it is very forgiving if not "perfect."  My kids put some of our kits together and they can adjust a mill by sight. The only reason that I would ever be interested in a compromise gap is if my mill was a pain in the butt to adjust.  None of my mills are, so I evaluate just about every grain I run through. Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone measured the distance between their rollers and what the spec is for the most efficient grind? Just curious as to what others have. I haven’t measured the distance yet, but am planning on it for record keeping purposes.

Response:

Has anyone measured the distance between their rollers and what the spec is for the most efficient grind? Just curious as to what others have. I haven’t measured the distance yet, but am planning on it for record keeping purposes.

Are you making gaps or grist? There is no magic gap, there are only compromise gaps that generally work. Learn to judge the quality of your grist and adjust accordingly.  Almost all the corns should be broken and it should be difficult to find intact corns that are not visually underdeveloped.  It is not a hard skill to pick up and it is very forgiving if not "perfect."  My kids put some of our kits together and they can adjust a mill by sight. The only reason that I would ever be interested in a compromise gap is if my mill was a pain in the butt to adjust.  None of my mills are, so I evaluate just about every grain I run through. — Dan Listermann Check out our E-tail site at www.listermann.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Well, a gap of around .045" is considered to be a good compromise that works well for most types of malt.  The JSP non-adjustable supposedly has a .045" gap, though I’ve never actually measured it.  The fixed gap seems to work reasonably well for the common malts (2- and 6-row barley malt, wheat malt, rye malt); unmalted adjuncts generally need to be run through the mill twice to get a good crush. — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone measured the distance between their rollers and what the spec is for the most efficient grind? Just curious as to what others have. I haven’t measured the distance yet, but am planning on it for record keeping purposes.

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Has anyone measured the distance between their rollers and what the spec is for the most efficient grind? Just curious as to what others have. I haven’t measured the distance yet, but am planning on it for record keeping purposes.

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Has anyone measured the distance between their rollers and what the spec is for the most efficient grind? Just curious as to what others have. I haven’t measured the distance yet, but am planning on it for record keeping purposes.

If you want to get that precise, then the answer is "it depends on which grain you’re grinding, as they’re slightly different sizes".  Most people set the roller gap by running a handful through and looking at the crush.  Adjust back and forth until the crush looks good.  If you really want to, you can measure how many mm your roller gap is, but I’ve never found it worth the effort. John. —                            *** John P. Kolesar ***            *** Head Administrator, Monty Python’s Flying Talker ***

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