Brewing Master

Question:

Hi Gene, Unlike beer, the yeast used for wine fermentation contributes little to the flavors of AGED, wine, and most flavor contributions from the yeast will be undetectable in red wines aged in oak barrels for normal periods.  Other winemaking factors such as fruit quality, variety, fermentation temperature, cap management, etc. influence wine flavors more than yeast. Light bodied, fruity wines are exceptions. These wines are bottled and consumed when they are YOUNG, and the effects of the yeast are still noticeable.  Under these conditions, subtle flavor and aroma variations in the wine can be produced by different strains of yeast. Most red wines are a year or so old when consumed, so the yeast used for the fermentation has relatively little effect.  White and blush wines and beer are consumed young, so the contributions from the yeast are more evident. Regards, lum

Charlie, Snip…. For instance there is little talk on the effect of yeast on wine, but for beer it seems to be a main subject at many of our meetings and as you know it does have a colossal effect on

Response:

 Charlie, Are you cirtified with any group? American Wine Society ! AHA ? I’m just curious as I’m in the final stages of judge cirtification.I also have judged beer but choose not to affiliate myself with any beer judge program (American Homebrewers Association in particular)as they have to wide a range of undiscriminating judges.The topic of malo-lactic and diacetyl being the same is a curious one.I’ll have to do a little more research on that and not take someone’s newsgroups word for it.( not that they are wrong,and it is a very good topic I did not associate with the beer defect.) I do not make KIT wines but a local store asked me to take an Australian Chardonay and use any thing in their store I wanted to make it the best it can be.So far I,m tossing the packet yeast ,and adding wyeast Chablis.I further wanted to malo-lactic 1/2 the batch then so2 them and blend them back.Seems silly for only 6 gals but it is just an experiment,.and its free.I find being a homebrewer gives the winemaker a better background that they do not otherwise have.For instance there is little talk on the effect of yeast on wine, but for beer it seems to be a main subject at many of our meetings and as you know it does have a colossal effect on – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.crafts.winemaking Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 11:32 PM So True!! I judge beer AND wine … I like it in BOTH!   It’s hard for me to "score" it as a defect in beer!  …  but that’s what "beer" folk want, and that’s what they get! … go figure! Charlie Bill, its the same chemical. Regards, Rex Franklin winemakers can tell if a wine went through MLF just by tasting the wine.  MLF does NOT increase fruit. In fact it usually decreases fruit by a detectable amount. " I’ve seen the comment about a "buttery" character being the result of MLF in several posts.   My wines are from hybrid grapes and as a rule have high acid content.  .  While I have never intentionally started a MLF in my wines I intend to do so next fall to help in lowering TA without resorting to addition of carbonate or other methods. The "buttery" flavor is curious to me.  I also brew beer and a "buttery" flavor would be a defect caused by the presence of diacetyl.  Does anyone know if the flavor in wine is due to the same chemical?  I’m sure I’ve enjoyed wines that have been through a MLF before but I’ve never noticed a flavor that makes me think of butter.  While I have no fear of starting a MLF in my hybrid wines I’m trying to know as much as possible before commiting a whole crop to a new process step. In addition, I put about 50ppm Free SO2 in the must just after crush, before pitching yeast.  Would it be best to not add this SO2 if the ML culture was going to be added near the end of primary fermentation, prior to racking over to carboys?  Or, is most of this initial SO2 gone by the time primary fermentation is complete?  I do measure SO2 and keep levels at about 30ppm, however, I’ve not paid close attention to the SO2 level just after primary is complete.   TIA. Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas So True!! I judge beer AND wine … I like it in BOTH!   It’s hard for me to "score" it as a defect in beer!  …  but that’s what "beer" folk want, and that’s what they get! … go figure! Charlie Bill, its the same chemical. Regards, Rex Franklin winemakers can tell if a wine went through MLF just by tasting the wine.  MLF does NOT increase fruit. In fact it usually decreases fruit by a detectable amount. " I’ve seen the comment about a "buttery" character being the result of MLF in several posts.   My wines are from hybrid grapes and as a rule have high acid content.  .  While I have never intentionally started a MLF in my wines I intend to do so next fall to help in lowering TA without resorting to addition of carbonate or other methods. The "buttery" flavor is curious to me.  I also brew beer and a "buttery" flavor would be a defect caused by the presence of diacetyl.  Does anyone know if the flavor in wine is due to the same chemical?  I’m sure I’ve enjoyed wines that have been through a MLF before but I’ve never noticed a flavor that makes me think of butter.  While I have no fear of starting a MLF in my hybrid wines I’m trying to know as much as possible before commiting a whole crop to a new process step. In addition, I put about 50ppm Free SO2 in the must just after crush, before pitching yeast.  Would it be best to not add this SO2 if the ML culture was going to be added near the end of primary fermentation, prior to racking over to carboys?  Or, is most of this initial SO2 gone by the time primary fermentation is complete?  I do measure SO2 and keep levels at about 30ppm, however, I’ve not paid close attention to the SO2 level just after primary is complete.   TIA. Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas

Response:

Also, if you want to put part of your wine through Malolactic and keep part of it non malolactic so you can blend, be sure to bring the SO2 levels in the wine you want to be non-malolactic up to 40-50ppm.

This is a very important point RG. I’ve bottled wines that were a blend of ML pos and ML neg with some very nice results. However, if the acid levels are proper to begin with, I tend to simply avoid ML.  These wines are tending to develop a creamy, buttery texture anyway, and the fruit balance with oak is quite pleasurable. Beyond proper sulfite levels, I feel it’s also important to filter these wines carefully (at least 0.5 absolute).  If there is any ML bacteria present in the wine, and the wine is stored for any length of time, say over one year, there’s a distinct risk of the ML restarting once the sulfite level drops, which is inevitable under the best circumstances. latron clyde

Response:

So True!! I judge beer AND wine … I like it in BOTH!   It’s hard for me to "score" it as a defect in beer!  …  but that’s what "beer" folk want, and that’s what they get! … go figure! Charlie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill, its the same chemical. Regards, Rex Franklin winemakers can tell if a wine went through MLF just by tasting the wine.  MLF does NOT increase fruit.  In fact it usually decreases fruit by a detectable amount. " I’ve seen the comment about a "buttery" character being the result of MLF in several posts.   My wines are from hybrid grapes and as a rule have high acid content.  .  While I have never intentionally started a MLF in my wines I intend to do so next fall to help in lowering TA without resorting to addition of carbonate or other methods. The "buttery" flavor is curious to me.  I also brew beer and a "buttery" flavor would be a defect caused by the presence of diacetyl.  Does anyone know if the flavor in wine is due to the same chemical?  I’m sure I’ve enjoyed wines that have been through a MLF before but I’ve never noticed a flavor that makes me think of butter.  While I have no fear of starting a MLF in my hybrid wines I’m trying to know as much as possible before commiting a whole crop to a new process step. In addition, I put about 50ppm Free SO2 in the must just after crush, before pitching yeast.  Would it be best to not add this SO2 if the ML culture was going to be added near the end of primary fermentation, prior to racking over to carboys?  Or, is most of this initial SO2 gone by the time primary fermentation is complete?  I do measure SO2 and keep levels at about 30ppm, however, I’ve not paid close attention to the SO2 level just after primary is complete.   TIA. Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas

Response:

Now that’s great information.You had my idea of taking the 6 gallon kit and dividing it in two parts,one with and one without.But you suggest that after they are both done to mix the two.That is something I didn’t think about and I think I will give it a try.Keeping in mind that the so2 levels  will be up after the mix to 40-50ppm.Now that is for Chardonay.Thank you

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – X-No-archive: yes Sorry for the double reply. I didn’t mean to hit the send before. If you want to try some wines that have had complete malolactic, I found a couple of web pages that list that kind of information. Check http://www.wineperspective.com/wine_reviews.htm and http://store.yahoo.com/klwines/chardonnay.html . These sites give details about how much of the final blend went through ML, as well as how much was treated to new oak and other winemaking details. I’ve never dealt with these sites, they just came up in a search engine when I looked for "100% malolactic". Also, if you want to put part of your wine through Malolactic and keep part of it non malolactic so you can blend, be sure to bring the SO2 levels in the wine you want to be non-malolactic up to 40-50ppm. If you don’t, then you could get some cross contamination with the ML bacteria and have malolactic happening where you don’t want it. Once you’ve started using Malolactic, you should pretty much assume that everything in your winemaking area is contaminated with the bacteria and that any wine you don’t keep the sulfite levels up in might start ML on its own. Submitted via WebNewsReader of http://www.interbulletin.com

Response:

Meridian also overdid the ML and the oak on their Chardonnay. Yuck. Waste of my $$ too. Joanne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve seen the comment about a "buttery" character being the result of MLF in several posts.   My wines are from hybrid grapes and as a rule have high acid content.  .  While I have never intentionally started a MLF in my wines I intend to do so next fall to help in lowering TA without resorting to addition of carbonate or other methods. Not saying you shouldn’t. Actually, you might try it with some and compare the results of your wine with MLF to the same wine without MLF. Many California winemakers now blend some wine that has had MLF with some that hasn’t to balance the acid reduction and additional complexity of the wine that underwent MLF with the stronger fruit character of the wine that hasn’t. The "buttery" flavor is curious to me.  I also brew beer and a "buttery" flavor would be a defect caused by the presence of diacetyl.  Does anyone know if the flavor in wine is due to the same chemical? It’s the same chemical. Diacetyl is a byproduct of the process that the bacteria cause that changes malic acid into lactic acid and CO2. If you hold off MLF until the primary fermentation of sugar into alcohol is completed by the yeast, the diacetyl will remain in the wine. If you start the MLF while the yeasts are still working the sugars, the yeast will also metabolize the diacetyl into CO2 and something else (I don’t remember all the chemistry). This is why you should wait until the wine has fermented to dryness before adding the ML culture. I’m sure I’ve enjoyed wines that have been through a MLF before but I’ve never noticed a flavor that makes me think of butter. The butter flavor is more pronounced and noticeable in whites. I’ve had several California chardonays where the flavor was very pronounced and easily identified. Estancia and J. Lohr chardonays from the mid 1990’s vintages come to mind as examples. Some years, they overdid the malolactic and the oak. The results tasted pretty much like a 2×4 with melted butter slathered over it. I’m sure there have been other wines that I’ve tasted that had these characteristics, too. I’m not singling out any one or two makers. Interesting if you like that sort of thing, but not necessarily to everybody’s tastes. By blending, you can get the best of both worlds. While I have no fear of starting a MLF in my hybrid wines I’m trying to know as much as possible before commiting a whole crop to a new process step. In addition, I put about 50ppm Free SO2 in the must just after crush, before pitching yeast.  Would it be best to not add this SO2 if the ML culture was going to be added near the end of primary fermentation, prior to racking over to carboys?  Or, is most of this initial SO2 gone by the time primary fermentation is complete? Most of the initial SO2 goes up with the bubbles during primary fermentation. I’ve seen varying advice on the maximum level of SO2 that can be present and still successfully have MLF start. You definitely need to be below 30ppm, and I’ve seen numbers as low as 15ppm quoted in some sources. Usually, you just add the culture when you rack into the carboy, or if there is still a bit of active fermentation going on at that time, you can wait until the fermentation has stopped. I do measure SO2 and keep levels at about 30ppm, however, I’ve not paid close attention to the SO2 level just after primary is complete.   TIA. Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas Submitted via WebNewsReader of http://www.interbulletin.com

Response:

Would it be possible to malo lactic a kit wine if you added the culture , say from wyeast.Has anyne done this?I know it adds a buttery character but does it increase the fruit as well?

Response:

You could innoculate with MLF culture to induce it in a kit.  Be careful, though, as kits are typically adjusted for acidity beforehand, so you could end up with a flabby wine.  Keep in mind too that kit manufacturers may add SO2, which can inhibit MLF.  Also, although MLF can increase complexity, it typically decreases fruit. Would it be possible to malo lactic a kit wine if you added the culture , say from wyeast.Has anyne done this?I know it adds a buttery character but does it increase the fruit as well?

Salud, Martin J. Crane

Response:

Would it be possible to malo lactic a kit wine if you added the culture , say from wyeast.Has anyne done this?

Hi Gene, Yes it is possible, but some kits contain excessive amounts of SO2. I know it adds a buttery character but does it increase the fruit as well?

It may add a buttery character, but very few winemakers can tell if a wine went through MLF just by tasting the wine.  MLF does NOT increase fruit.  In fact it usually decreases fruit by a detectable amount. Regards, lum

Response:

winemakers can tell if a wine went through MLF just by tasting the wine.  MLF does NOT increase fruit.  In fact it usually decreases fruit by a detectable amount. " I’ve seen the comment about a "buttery" character being the result of MLF in several posts.   My wines are from hybrid grapes and as a rule have high acid content.  .  While I have never intentionally started a MLF in my wines I intend to do so next fall to help in lowering TA without resorting to addition of carbonate or other methods. The "buttery" flavor is curious to me.  I also brew beer and a "buttery" flavor would be a defect caused by the presence of diacetyl.  Does anyone know if the flavor in wine is due to the same chemical?  I’m sure I’ve enjoyed wines that have been through a MLF before but I’ve never noticed a flavor that makes me think of butter.  While I have no fear of starting a MLF in my hybrid wines I’m trying to know as much as possible before commiting a whole crop to a new process step. In addition, I put about 50ppm Free SO2 in the must just after crush, before pitching yeast.  Would it be best to not add this SO2 if the ML culture was going to be added near the end of primary fermentation, prior to racking over to carboys?  Or, is most of this initial SO2 gone by the time primary fermentation is complete?  I do measure SO2 and keep levels at about 30ppm, however, I’ve not paid close attention to the SO2 level just after primary is complete.   TIA. Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas

Response:

Bill, its the same chemical. Regards, Rex Franklin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – winemakers can tell if a wine went through MLF just by tasting the wine.  MLF does NOT increase fruit.  In fact it usually decreases fruit by a detectable amount. " I’ve seen the comment about a "buttery" character being the result of MLF in several posts.   My wines are from hybrid grapes and as a rule have high acid content.  .  While I have never intentionally started a MLF in my wines I intend to do so next fall to help in lowering TA without resorting to addition of carbonate or other methods. The "buttery" flavor is curious to me.  I also brew beer and a "buttery" flavor would be a defect caused by the presence of diacetyl.  Does anyone know if the flavor in wine is due to the same chemical?  I’m sure I’ve enjoyed wines that have been through a MLF before but I’ve never noticed a flavor that makes me think of butter.  While I have no fear of starting a MLF in my hybrid wines I’m trying to know as much as possible before commiting a whole crop to a new process step. In addition, I put about 50ppm Free SO2 in the must just after crush, before pitching yeast.  Would it be best to not add this SO2 if the ML culture was going to be added near the end of primary fermentation, prior to racking over to carboys?  Or, is most of this initial SO2 gone by the time primary fermentation is complete?  I do measure SO2 and keep levels at about 30ppm, however, I’ve not paid close attention to the SO2 level just after primary is complete.   TIA. Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas

Response:

I’ve seen the comment about a "buttery" character being the result of MLF in several posts.   My wines are from hybrid grapes and as a rule have high acid content.  .  While I have never intentionally started a MLF in my wines I intend to do so next fall to help in lowering TA without resorting to addition of carbonate or other methods.

Not saying you shouldn’t. Actually, you might try it with some and compare the results of your wine with MLF to the same wine without MLF. Many California winemakers now blend some wine that has had MLF with some that hasn’t to balance the acid reduction and additional complexity of the wine that underwent MLF with the stronger fruit character of the wine that hasn’t. The "buttery" flavor is curious to me.  I also brew beer and a "buttery" flavor would be a defect caused by the presence of diacetyl.  Does anyone know if the flavor in wine is due to the same chemical?  

It’s the same chemical. Diacetyl is a byproduct of the process that the bacteria cause that changes malic acid into lactic acid and CO2. If you hold off MLF until the primary fermentation of sugar into alcohol is completed by the yeast, the diacetyl will remain in the wine. If you start the MLF while the yeasts are still working the sugars, the yeast will also metabolize the diacetyl into CO2 and something else (I don’t remember all the chemistry). This is why you should wait until the wine has fermented to dryness before adding the ML culture. I’m sure I’ve enjoyed wines that have been through a MLF before but I’ve never noticed a flavor that makes me think of butter.  

The butter flavor is more pronounced and noticeable in whites. I’ve had several California chardonays where the flavor was very pronounced and easily identified. Estancia and J. Lohr chardonays from the mid 1990’s vintages come to mind as examples. Some years, they overdid the malolactic and the oak. The results tasted pretty much like a 2×4 with melted butter slathered over it. I’m sure there have been other wines that I’ve tasted that had these characteristics, too. I’m not singling out any one or two makers. Interesting if you like that sort of thing, but not necessarily to everybody’s tastes. By blending, you can get the best of both worlds. While I have no fear of starting a MLF in my hybrid wines I’m trying to know as much as possible before commiting a whole crop to a new process step. In addition, I put about 50ppm Free SO2 in the must just after crush, before pitching yeast.  Would it be best to not add this SO2 if the ML culture was going to be added near the end of primary fermentation, prior to racking over to carboys?  Or, is most of this initial SO2 gone by the time primary fermentation is complete?  

Most of the initial SO2 goes up with the bubbles during primary fermentation. I’ve seen varying advice on the maximum level of SO2 that can be present and still successfully have MLF start. You definitely need to be below 30ppm, and I’ve seen numbers as low as 15ppm quoted in some sources. Usually, you just add the culture when you rack into the carboy, or if there is still a bit of active fermentation going on at that time, you can wait until the fermentation has stopped. I do measure SO2 and keep levels at about 30ppm, however, I’ve not paid close attention to the SO2 level just after primary is complete.   TIA. Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas

Submitted via WebNewsReader of http://www.interbulletin.com

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