Brewing Master

Question:

The fridge will be running on butane, but it needs power for the internal lights, fans, etc…. Rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a 90 watt panel which is fine for lights and pump, but no way enough for the fridge. I use a solid state cooler for weekend trips on the road which works fine with the solar panel, 4 golf cart batteries and the alternator charge on the road. The batteries and solar panel will cover it with the pump, solid state cooler, a couple of fans, laptop computer and lights for a few days without draining the batteries too much. See: http://www.edsanders.com/solar/hotwater.htm I’ve added a bunch of links at the bottom of the page on solar electricity for my own use that you might find helpful. when dry camping.   Im thinking a 32 watt????   Im not trying to run appliances, just power the lights, fridge, and pump.  Is this enough?  Also, do I need a regulator for this size panel? I would.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking for plans for a homebrew solar charger regulator. Does anyone have plans or know where I can get plans ? You might want to hook up an ammeter and try to find the leak first. If you are shutting off all the lights, the fridge, the furnace and the hot water heater, where is your discharge coming from? If you can set up an ammeter, you can start pulling fuses and figure out which circuit has the problem. I had a "Battery MOnitor" installed with my two solar panels, so I’d know what was going on. At night, (no sun to offset usage) with nothing turned on, I get absolutely ZERO draw.  The fridge draws a portion of an amp when on propane, as do the other gas appliances, for their control circutry. See http://www.traceengineering.com/products/remotecontrols/TM500/index.html for info on my battery meter. </edg I currently have a 5watt solar panel on a TT but the battery slowly drains when its not in use. I would like to install a bigger panel to keep the battery charged as well as re-charge the battery when dry camping.   Im thinking a 32 watt????   Im not trying to run appliances, just power the lights, fridge, and pump.  Is this enough?  Also, do I need a regulator for this size panel? You should use a regulator with ANY size panel to keep from overcharging the battery.  By the way; I just bought a system from Camping World – about 20W if I recall, with a controller, for $170.  People say, and I agree, that Camping World is pretty high priced, but I could not find a 20W panel for that price anywhere. — * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free! —                     http://www.greenberg.org/ Past Master (1999) Charity Jarman Lodge No. 362 F&AM, Los Gatos, California

how about a buying club?

Response:

Sounds like time to disconnect the battery and see if it still runs down. Probably won’t. Check and see if there is a gas detector and if it is still on when all the breakers are off. Bill K7NOM – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I tried letting it sit with a full battery and all breakers thrown and it still discharged. BTW, the battery is new.  I asked the dealer about the battery not lasting and he said that they all of the new trailers do this.   My thought is that the converter hanging on the 12v system presents a small amount of loading.   Probably the best thing, but not the easiest or most conenient would be to disconnect the trailer and connect the panel to the battery directly.   Going bigger will also allow for an extended dry camp stay whereas the 5W will not. Rick You might want to hook up an ammeter and try to find the leak first. If you are shutting off all the lights, the fridge, the furnace and the hot water heater, where is your discharge coming from? If you can set up an ammeter, you can start pulling fuses and figure out which circuit has the problem.

Response:

There are many solar regulators that will regulate down from 24 to 12 volts. The problem with doing so is that you lose over 1/2 of the power output of the panel. In other words, a 100 watt panel would only put in a little over 3 amps.

This is true if you use a regulator circuit, but use of a DC to DC converter is much more effecient. The MC33063 is 86% efficient.

Response:

I do have a CO alarm which most likely is off of the battery.    This makes lots of sense!!!!

Don’t forget that a DC TV set draws about 1 amp when OFF. Be sure to unplug the TV, not just turn it off. Bill

Response:

I have a 90 watt panel which is fine for lights and pump, but no way enough for the fridge. I use a solid state cooler for weekend trips on the road which works fine with the solar panel, 4 golf cart batteries and the alternator charge on the road. The batteries and solar panel will cover it with the pump, solid state cooler, a couple of fans, laptop computer and lights for a few days without draining the batteries too much. See: http://www.edsanders.com/solar/hotwater.htm I’ve added a bunch of links at the bottom of the page on solar electricity for my own use that you might find helpful. when dry camping.   Im thinking a 32 watt????   Im not trying to run appliances, just power the lights, fridge, and pump.  Is this enough?  Also, do I need a regulator for this size panel?

I would.

Response:

I’m looking for plans for a homebrew solar charger regulator. Does anyone have plans or know where I can get plans ?

The simplest type involves little more than a series diode to block discharging when the panel voltage is lower than the battery voltage, and a parallel shunt device, probably a darlington transistor, triggered by a zener diode or simple voltage comparator circuit. An LED and series resistor in parallel with the regulator input detects PV output and indicates when shunt mode is active by switching off. The most sophisticated type, and the only other style worth considering, is a power-maximizing type. This uses a variable-voltage inverter to maximize power transfer, and requires a lot of finesse in the design to justify the extra cost and complexity. Only recommended for high-power systems, really. Steve * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Since you can buy an off the shelf made for solar 4.5 amp regulator for $28, it hardly seems worth it unless you just like to tinker. — Electricity from the sun since 1979 http://www.windsun.com/ (info & specs) http://www.solar-electric.com/ (online store) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found a kit for a universal battery charger. It is made by velleman-kit K7302 and sells for $13.00  It takes 18vdc input for a 12volt battery.  It has selectable current charge rates of 50, 100,200,300 and 400ma.

Response:

I do have a CO alarm which most likely is off of the battery.    This makes lots of sense!!!! Rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I tried letting it sit with a full battery and all breakers thrown and it still discharged. BTW, the battery is new.  I asked the dealer about the battery not lasting and he said that they all of the new trailers do this.   My thought is that the converter hanging on the 12v system presents a small amount of loading.   Probably the best thing, but not the easiest or most conenient would be to disconnect the trailer and connect the panel to the battery directly.   Going bigger will also allow for an extended dry camp stay whereas the 5W will not. Rick You may have a CO or gas alarm direct wired and not through the breakers. RV’n Ken  in Las Vegas… Winter is almost over…. Planing summer trip.

Response:

I currently have a 5watt solar panel on a TT but the battery slowly drains when its not in use.

  Em, something most be on, as that should keep the battery up just fine. I’d check and see what is on, if nothing is look for shorts. You -might- have a low current short I would like to install a bigger panel to keep the battery charged as well as re-charge the battery when dry camping.   Im thinking a 32 watt????   Im not trying to run appliances, just power the lights, fridge, and pump.  Is this enough?  

  Without a battery, no. With well.. I run two 15watt pannels and don’t run out of power over a 3-5 day span (being careful with the use). So I would say, maybe. Because your fridge would draw a -lot- of power. Also, do I need a regulator for this size panel?

  Yes —– RV and Camping FAQ <http://kendaco.telebyte.net/rlindber/rv/ Oh Bother said the Borg, we’ve assimilated Po

Response:

Did you notice ‘Rick’s’ e-mail address? Yes, I did.  And I also know that Camping world publishes a catalog, and that the panel I bought is in their catalog.  I don’t know how much it would cost to ship it overseas, but then that information might be on their web site, n’est-ce pas?

  OK you noticed the german part, did you also notice he works for one of the largest builders of solar panels?   He was also asking for tech help, not a place to buy overpriced (and they are overpriced) panels.   Which begs the question why he did ask inside the firm, but…. —– RV and Camping FAQ <http://kendaco.telebyte.net/rlindber/rv/ Oh Bother said the Borg, we’ve assimilated Po

Response:

JFYI, Im in California.  My email goes thru an exchange server.    I am checking to see if I get an employee discount on Siemens Solar! Rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did you notice ‘Rick’s’ e-mail address? Yes, I did.  And I also know that Camping world publishes a catalog, and that the panel I bought is in their catalog.  I don’t know how much it would cost to ship it overseas, but then that information might be on their web site, n’est-ce pas? — * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

I found a kit for a universal battery charger. It is made by velleman-kit K7302 and sells for $13.00  It takes 18vdc input for a 12volt battery.  It has selectable current charge rates of 50, 100,200,300 and 400ma.

Response:

I tried letting it sit with a full battery and all breakers thrown and it still discharged. BTW, the battery is new.  I asked the dealer about the battery not lasting and he said that they all of the new trailers do this.   My thought is that the converter hanging on the 12v system presents a small amount of loading.   Probably the best thing, but not the easiest or most conenient would be to disconnect the trailer and connect the panel to the battery directly.   Going bigger will also allow for an extended dry camp stay whereas the 5W will not. Rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You might want to hook up an ammeter and try to find the leak first. If you are shutting off all the lights, the fridge, the furnace and the hot water heater, where is your discharge coming from? If you can set up an ammeter, you can start pulling fuses and figure out which circuit has the problem.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I tried letting it sit with a full battery and all breakers thrown and it still discharged. BTW, the battery is new.  I asked the dealer about the battery not lasting and he said that they all of the new trailers do this.   My thought is that the converter hanging on the 12v system presents a small amount of loading.   Probably the best thing, but not the easiest or most conenient would be to disconnect the trailer and connect the panel to the battery directly.   Going bigger will also allow for an extended dry camp stay whereas the 5W will not. Rick

You may have a CO or gas alarm direct wired and not through the breakers. RV’n Ken  in Las Vegas… Winter is almost over…. Planing summer trip.

Response:

There are many solar regulators that will regulate down from 24 to 12 volts. The problem with doing so is that you lose over 1/2 of the power output of the panel. In other words, a 100 watt panel would only put in a little over 3 amps. — Electricity from the sun since 1979 http://www.windsun.com/ (info & specs) http://www.solar-electric.com/ (online store)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking for plans for a homebrew solar charger regulator. Does anyone have plans or know where I can get plans ? go to www.motorola.com and search for MC33063. Its an IC  that requires little extra circuitry that provides a DC to DC converter. 0-40V input with user adjustable regulated voltage output. May require current regulator on the converter output. I’m working on one now for my 24V panel. I decided to make one after failing to find a 24V to 12V regulator for solar panels. Parts on order. Give me a couple of weeks and I’ll have schematics for you.

Response:

I currently have a 5watt solar panel on a TT but the battery slowly drains when its not in use. I would like to install a bigger panel to keep the battery charged as well as re-charge the battery when dry camping.   Im thinking a 32 watt????   Im not trying to run appliances, just power the lights, fridge, and pump.  Is this enough?  Also, do I need a regulator for this size panel?

You should use a regulator with ANY size panel to keep from overcharging the battery.  By the way; I just bought a system from Camping World – about 20W if I recall, with a controller, for $170.  People say, and I agree, that Camping World is pretty high priced, but I could not find a 20W panel for that price anywhere. — * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Alan, Did you notice ‘Rick’s’ e-mail address? Mike, CA RVChem.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I currently have a 5watt solar panel on a TT but the battery slowly drains when its not in use. I would like to install a bigger panel to keep the battery charged as well as re-charge the battery when dry camping.   Im thinking a 32 watt????   Im not trying to run appliances, just power the lights, fridge, and pump.  Is this enough?  Also, do I need a regulator for this size panel? You should use a regulator with ANY size panel to keep from overcharging the battery.  By the way; I just bought a system from Camping World – about 20W if I recall, with a controller, for $170.  People say, and I agree, that Camping World is pretty high priced, but I could not find a 20W panel for that price anywhere. — * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Did you notice ‘Rick’s’ e-mail address?

Yes, I did.  And I also know that Camping world publishes a catalog, and that the panel I bought is in their catalog.  I don’t know how much it would cost to ship it overseas, but then that information might be on their web site, n’est-ce pas? — * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Rick, You should be able to find the information you’re looking for at the Siemens Solar website at http://www.siemenssolar.com/ . Mike, CA RVChem.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I currently have a 5watt solar panel on a TT but the battery slowly drains when its not in use. I would like to install a bigger panel to keep the battery charged as well as re-charge the battery when dry camping.   Im thinking a 32 watt????   Im not trying to run appliances, just power the lights, fridge, and pump.  Is this enough?  Also, do I need a regulator for this size panel? Thanks Rick

Response:

I currently have a 5watt solar panel on a TT but the battery slowly drains when its not in use. I would like to install a bigger panel to keep the battery charged as well as re-charge the battery when dry camping.   Im thinking a 32 watt????   Im not trying to run appliances, just power the lights, fridge, and pump.  Is this enough?  Also, do I need a regulator for this size panel? Thanks Rick

Response:

words: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – my remarks as follows: LZ If you are in an area where the wind is reliable, a wind generator is an option.  Not too bulky and doesn’t care if the sun shines or not.  I have one I bought in ‘99 and have yet to use.  Think it is supposed to produce 400 watts max with a 28 MPH wind.  People I’ve talked to that used them said they were happy with them. Will: Surely you jest.  Wind-powerd generators for rv’s? I gotta tell ya that they are as useless as Oz (we usta say teats on a boar hawg) UNLESS all of the following apply: – you have a tall enuf tower to evade ground effect turbulence LZ: Those I have seen in use are usually only 12-15 ft up. Then you have seen some operating VERY inefficiently. I didn’t say they were perfect.  At the locations I saw them they were producing the juice the owners needed. – you have the power needs of a pioneer family Think of it as an assist to solar panels. Fine – but be realistic.   I live on a high ridge well above average terrain – my wind machines were idle MOST of the time. Try moving to the Colorado River valley in winter.  That’s where they were in use. – the area is as perpetually windy as the Altamont (CA) pass Lots of places along the Colorado River have at least 10-15 knots daily in winter season. For how long?   As a rule of thumb, wind power is simply not practical unless AVERAGE winds are 14-15 knots and higher. And if you propose to spend your winters along a CO river, blessings on you. Thousands of people do.  Ever heard of Lake Havasu, Bullhead City, Parker and Yuma? – you & neighbors don’t mind the racket All I noticed was a ticking sound. If the wind doesn’t blow, you don’t even hear that!   If a good gale gets going, the dang things will rase the dead. Perhaps you should read the specs I furnished? – you have the price of a good genset to spend I only paid about $450 for mine.  You sure you know what you are talking about? My wife says it was more like $525.  Here is the machine: http://www.solardyne.com/air403wingen.html Then you got what is essentially a toy with virtually no practical use for an rv’er – unless you ALWAYS perch your rig on a high peak or exposed windy ridge.  In which case it WILL charge batteries on windy days.  AS it happened I paid about tha in ’60’s $$$ for a 200w Wincharger. I think you need to do some climatology studies. My credentials:  No degree, no license, no certificate on the wall. Just 10 years of hands-on experience including erecting a 95′ tower and running a pair of machines off & on during that period. Apparently they weren’t that well designed.  Try modern technology with graphite blades and more efficient electronics. I make no pretense that the Wincharger was "well designed" – it was rugged & dependable but not efficient.    My big machine was a 120v Jacobs, arguably one of the most dependable machines ever made in quantity. (Same type that ran at the South Pole for many years) Think I dunno what I’m talking about? Visit the DOE small wind machine test site at Rocky Flats in CO and find out for yourself. Why not visit dry camping spots along the Colorado river and talk to people who have them in operation?  I don’t think they are part of their lawn ornament arrangement. Why not? Because I have figured out what I need to know about wind-powered generators.   Only a fool keeps studying once he knows enough to make a decision. Sounds to me like you are talking about 20 year old technology. In another post you write: ::The small set I have will cut out and turn sideways at winds over a ::certain speed.  It’s not designed for high speed winds but rather ::moderate speed ones.  I think it starts generating at 7 MPH.  Haven’t ::read the instruction book for several years though. At the risk of pissing you off, this proves you know next to nothing about wind power.   Claims of machines that produce usable power under 10mph are almost always part of a overall campaign of deceptive advertising. So buy one so you can sue the company. In fact the web site you referenced is a classic example of the typical alternate energy dream peddlers ad copy.  Look closely at the so-called performance curves.   Assume they are correct if you like (something I doubt!), and tell me if you can how much power this machine produces at 10MPH – never mind 7 – in turbulent air. Get out there and RUN the dang thing if you think it is such hot stuff. After you’ve had a few weeks or months of EXPERIENCE, feel free to stand and signify.   In the meantime I suggest you don’t make great leaps of faith on the basis of ad copy and testimonials. I bought mine after talking to a number of owners who had used them for two winters.  They didn’t try to sell me theirs.  Maybe they knew more than you do?  At the time I was doing quite a bit of boondocking as I had not become addicted to surfing the net. As an addition to 6 solar panels I think it is a perfectly reasonable option.  I am in no hurry to unload mine as I recently purchased a lake lot and may well put the wind generator in service this coming summer. LZ Will Sill BTDT

Ya know, I THOUGHT I remembered you as one of the pompous idjits I had previously filtered – it is starting to come back to me now.  G’bye. Will Sill Spout bafflegab to infants, they giggle or cry Spout it on usenet, you get challenged.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – my remarks as follows: LZ If you are in an area where the wind is reliable, a wind generator is an option.  Not too bulky and doesn’t care if the sun shines or not.  I have one I bought in ‘99 and have yet to use.  Think it is supposed to produce 400 watts max with a 28 MPH wind.  People I’ve talked to that used them said they were happy with them. Will: Surely you jest.  Wind-powerd generators for rv’s? I gotta tell ya that they are as useless as Oz (we usta say teats on a boar hawg) UNLESS all of the following apply: – you have a tall enuf tower to evade ground effect turbulence LZ: Those I have seen in use are usually only 12-15 ft up. Then you have seen some operating VERY inefficiently.

I didn’t say they were perfect.  At the locations I saw them they were producing the juice the owners needed. – you have the power needs of a pioneer family Think of it as an assist to solar panels. Fine – but be realistic.   I live on a high ridge well above average terrain – my wind machines were idle MOST of the time.

Try moving to the Colorado River valley in winter.  That’s where they were in use. – the area is as perpetually windy as the Altamont (CA) pass Lots of places along the Colorado River have at least 10-15 knots daily in winter season. For how long?   As a rule of thumb, wind power is simply not practical unless AVERAGE winds are 14-15 knots and higher. And if you propose to spend your winters along a CO river, blessings on you.

Thousands of people do.  Ever heard of Lake Havasu, Bullhead City, Parker and Yuma? – you & neighbors don’t mind the racket All I noticed was a ticking sound. If the wind doesn’t blow, you don’t even hear that!   If a good gale gets going, the dang things will rase the dead.

Perhaps you should read the specs I furnished? – you have the price of a good genset to spend I only paid about $450 for mine.  You sure you know what you are talking about?

My wife says it was more like $525.  Here is the machine: http://www.solardyne.com/air403wingen.html Then you got what is essentially a toy with virtually no practical use for an rv’er – unless you ALWAYS perch your rig on a high peak or exposed windy ridge.  In which case it WILL charge batteries on windy days.  AS it happened I paid about tha in ’60’s $$$ for a 200w Wincharger.

I think you need to do some climatology studies. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My credentials:  No degree, no license, no certificate on the wall. Just 10 years of hands-on experience including erecting a 95′ tower and running a pair of machines off & on during that period. Apparently they weren’t that well designed.  Try modern technology with graphite blades and more efficient electronics. I make no pretense that the Wincharger was "well designed" – it was rugged & dependable but not efficient.    My big machine was a 120v Jacobs, arguably one of the most dependable machines ever made in quantity. (Same type that ran at the South Pole for many years) Think I dunno what I’m talking about? Visit the DOE small wind machine test site at Rocky Flats in CO and find out for yourself. Why not visit dry camping spots along the Colorado river and talk to people who have them in operation?  I don’t think they are part of their lawn ornament arrangement. Why not? Because I have figured out what I need to know about wind-powered generators.   Only a fool keeps studying once he knows enough to make a decision.

Sounds to me like you are talking about 20 year old technology. In another post you write: ::The small set I have will cut out and turn sideways at winds over a ::certain speed.  It’s not designed for high speed winds but rather ::moderate speed ones.  I think it starts generating at 7 MPH.  Haven’t ::read the instruction book for several years though. At the risk of pissing you off, this proves you know next to nothing about wind power.   Claims of machines that produce usable power under 10mph are almost always part of a overall campaign of deceptive advertising.

So buy one so you can sue the company. In fact the web site you referenced is a classic example of the typical alternate energy dream peddlers ad copy.  Look closely at the so-called performance curves.   Assume they are correct if you like (something I doubt!), and tell me if you can how much power this machine produces at 10MPH – never mind 7 – in turbulent air. Get out there and RUN the dang thing if you think it is such hot stuff. After you’ve had a few weeks or months of EXPERIENCE, feel free to stand and signify.   In the meantime I suggest you don’t make great leaps of faith on the basis of ad copy and testimonials.

I bought mine after talking to a number of owners who had used them for two winters.  They didn’t try to sell me theirs.  Maybe they knew more than you do?  At the time I was doing quite a bit of boondocking as I had not become addicted to surfing the net. As an addition to 6 solar panels I think it is a perfectly reasonable option.  I am in no hurry to unload mine as I recently purchased a lake lot and may well put the wind generator in service this coming summer. LZ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Will Sill BTDT

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – words: my remarks as follows: LZ If you are in an area where the wind is reliable, a wind generator is an option.  Not too bulky and doesn’t care if the sun shines or not.  I have one I bought in ‘99 and have yet to use.  Think it is supposed to produce 400 watts max with a 28 MPH wind.  People I’ve talked to that used them said they were happy with them. Will: Surely you jest.  Wind-powerd generators for rv’s? I gotta tell ya that they are as useless as Oz (we usta say teats on a boar hawg) UNLESS all of the following apply: – you have a tall enuf tower to evade ground effect turbulence LZ: Those I have seen in use are usually only 12-15 ft up. Then you have seen some operating VERY inefficiently. I didn’t say they were perfect.  At the locations I saw them they were producing the juice the owners needed. – you have the power needs of a pioneer family Think of it as an assist to solar panels. Fine – but be realistic.   I live on a high ridge well above average terrain – my wind machines were idle MOST of the time. Try moving to the Colorado River valley in winter.  That’s where they were in use. – the area is as perpetually windy as the Altamont (CA) pass Lots of places along the Colorado River have at least 10-15 knots daily in winter season. For how long?   As a rule of thumb, wind power is simply not practical unless AVERAGE winds are 14-15 knots and higher. And if you propose to spend your winters along a CO river, blessings on you. Thousands of people do.  Ever heard of Lake Havasu, Bullhead City, Parker and Yuma? – you & neighbors don’t mind the racket All I noticed was a ticking sound. If the wind doesn’t blow, you don’t even hear that!   If a good gale gets going, the dang things will rase the dead. Perhaps you should read the specs I furnished? – you have the price of a good genset to spend I only paid about $450 for mine.  You sure you know what you are talking about? My wife says it was more like $525.  Here is the machine: http://www.solardyne.com/air403wingen.html Then you got what is essentially a toy with virtually no practical use for an rv’er – unless you ALWAYS perch your rig on a high peak or exposed windy ridge.  In which case it WILL charge batteries on windy days.  AS it happened I paid about tha in ’60’s $$$ for a 200w Wincharger. I think you need to do some climatology studies. My credentials:  No degree, no license, no certificate on the wall. Just 10 years of hands-on experience including erecting a 95′ tower and running a pair of machines off & on during that period. Apparently they weren’t that well designed.  Try modern technology with graphite blades and more efficient electronics. I make no pretense that the Wincharger was "well designed" – it was rugged & dependable but not efficient.    My big machine was a 120v Jacobs, arguably one of the most dependable machines ever made in quantity. (Same type that ran at the South Pole for many years) Think I dunno what I’m talking about? Visit the DOE small wind machine test site at Rocky Flats in CO and find out for yourself. Why not visit dry camping spots along the Colorado river and talk to people who have them in operation?  I don’t think they are part of their lawn ornament arrangement. Why not? Because I have figured out what I need to know about wind-powered generators.   Only a fool keeps studying once he knows enough to make a decision. Sounds to me like you are talking about 20 year old technology. In another post you write: ::The small set I have will cut out and turn sideways at winds over a ::certain speed.  It’s not designed for high speed winds but rather ::moderate speed ones.  I think it starts generating at 7 MPH.  Haven’t ::read the instruction book for several years though. At the risk of pissing you off, this proves you know next to nothing about wind power.   Claims of machines that produce usable power under 10mph are almost always part of a overall campaign of deceptive advertising. So buy one so you can sue the company. In fact the web site you referenced is a classic example of the typical alternate energy dream peddlers ad copy.  Look closely at the so-called performance curves.   Assume they are correct if you like (something I doubt!), and tell me if you can how much power this machine produces at 10MPH – never mind 7 – in turbulent air. Get out there and RUN the dang thing if you think it is such hot stuff. After you’ve had a few weeks or months of EXPERIENCE, feel free to stand and signify.   In the meantime I suggest you don’t make great leaps of faith on the basis of ad copy and testimonials. I bought mine after talking to a number of owners who had used them for two winters.  They didn’t try to sell me theirs.  Maybe they knew more than you do?  At the time I was doing quite a bit of boondocking as I had not become addicted to surfing the net. As an addition to 6 solar panels I think it is a perfectly reasonable option.  I am in no hurry to unload mine as I recently purchased a lake lot and may well put the wind generator in service this coming summer. LZ Will Sill BTDT Ya know, I THOUGHT I remembered you as one of the pompous idjits I had previously filtered – it is starting to come back to me now.  G’bye.

You plonked me because your windy bullshit and know-it-all attitude was unsuccessful in running me off.  Please make it permanent this time. Oh, and get up to speed on wind generators.  The 1949 Ford was a great car in its day but obsolete now. LZ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Will Sill Spout bafflegab to infants, they giggle or cry Spout it on usenet, you get challenged.

Response:

http://www.e-marine-inc.com/products/wind_generators/airxmarine.html Here is the link to the wind machine I purchased in ‘99. LZ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Think I dunno what I’m talking about? Visit the DOE small wind machine test site at Rocky Flats in CO and find out for yourself. As a former windmill engineer with experience with machines as small as 400 watts to 400 KW, I have to agree with Will although perhaps with not so much absolutism. Regarding Rocky Flats, that is probably the worst test sites they could have picked to test small wind machines.  It has a good average wind speed, but the problem with that is that the wind is quiet for days and then they get these 100 MPH winds tearing down out of the mountains that destroys everything in its path. The small set I have will cut out and turn sideways at winds over a certain speed.  It’s not designed for high speed winds but rather moderate speed ones.  I think it starts generating at 7 MPH.  Haven’t read the instruction book for several years though. I generally don’t recommend wind machines because of the noise and the problems people have being their own utility.  That said though, the small units mounted on sailboats seem to work pretty well.  A unit big enough to be useful can be a pretty dangerous beast if you aren’t careful to take it down during storm winds.  I had one friend who had his trailer skewered with a broken blade that came right down into his bedroom.  The blades can sail a long way when they get loose.  Then you have to deal with a machine with a very out of balance rotor. That will usually result in the tower coming down. The blades on mine are very narrow, made of graphite and look like knife blades.  At the tip they are maybe 1" wide, at the base maybe 2". Sorry to be so pessimistic, but I think the right place for windmills is on a windfarm where regular maintenance by professionals can result in high reliability power.  The last job I had was in the Altamont Pass in California working with thousands of machines. These little ones are supposed to be nearly maintenance free.  What maintenance would be perform?  I’ve seen the huge wind generators near Mojave in California and Minnesota has a lot of them along Buffalo Ridge but those monsters have very little in common with these small ones. These are designed to be portable and used with RVs. LZ Earle Rich Mont Vernon, NH

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From what I’ve read about wind generators, Will, I’m not sure they’re as useful as you indicate. You’re reading must be quite limited.  Wind power is quite viable under some conditions. My remarks were intended to highlight some reasons it wasn’t likely to be a big hit with most rv’ers. Will Sill

My reading on this subject has been quite limited. Maybe if I had included a <g it would have been more obvious that I was simply agreeing with your comments as applied to RVers. (But LZ’s windmill looks interesting.) Apparently it bothers you even more than it does me that we actually agree on so many things, Will. CharlieG

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http://www.e-marine-inc.com/products/wind_generators/airxmarine.html Here is the link to the wind machine I purchased in ‘99. LZ

snipped Looks good LZ

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From what I’ve read about wind generators, Will, I’m not sure they’re as useful as you indicate.

You’re reading must be quite limited.  Wind power is quite viable under some conditions. My remarks were intended to highlight some reasons it wasn’t likely to be a big hit with most rv’ers. Will Sill

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my remarks as follows: LZ If you are in an area where the wind is reliable, a wind generator is an option.  Not too bulky and doesn’t care if the sun shines or not.  I have one I bought in ‘99 and have yet to use.  Think it is supposed to produce 400 watts max with a 28 MPH wind.  People I’ve talked to that used them said they were happy with them.

Will: Surely you jest.  Wind-powerd generators for rv’s? I gotta tell ya that they are as useless as Oz (we usta say teats on a boar hawg) UNLESS all of the following apply: – you have a tall enuf tower to evade ground effect turbulence

LZ: Those I have seen in use are usually only 12-15 ft up.

Then you have seen some operating VERY inefficiently. – you have the power needs of a pioneer family Think of it as an assist to solar panels.

Fine – but be realistic.   I live on a high ridge well above average terrain – my wind machines were idle MOST of the time. – the area is as perpetually windy as the Altamont (CA) pass Lots of places along the Colorado River have at least 10-15 knots daily in winter season.

For how long?   As a rule of thumb, wind power is simply not practical unless AVERAGE winds are 14-15 knots and higher. And if you propose to spend your winters along a CO river, blessings on you. – you & neighbors don’t mind the racket All I noticed was a ticking sound.

If the wind doesn’t blow, you don’t even hear that!   If a good gale gets going, the dang things will rase the dead. – you have the price of a good genset to spend I only paid about $450 for mine.  You sure you know what you are talking about?

Then you got what is essentially a toy with virtually no practical use for an rv’er – unless you ALWAYS perch your rig on a high peak or exposed windy ridge.  In which case it WILL charge batteries on windy days.  AS it happened I paid about tha in ’60’s $$$ for a 200w Wincharger. My credentials:  No degree, no license, no certificate on the wall. Just 10 years of hands-on experience including erecting a 95′ tower and running a pair of machines off & on during that period. Apparently they weren’t that well designed.  Try modern technology with graphite blades and more efficient electronics.

I make no pretense that the Wincharger was "well designed" – it was rugged & dependable but not efficient.    My big machine was a 120v Jacobs, arguably one of the most dependable machines ever made in quantity. (Same type that ran at the South Pole for many years) Think I dunno what I’m talking about? Visit the DOE small wind machine test site at Rocky Flats in CO and find out for yourself. Why not visit dry camping spots along the Colorado river and talk to people who have them in operation?  I don’t think they are part of their lawn ornament arrangement.

Why not? Because I have figured out what I need to know about wind-powered generators.   Only a fool keeps studying once he knows enough to make a decision. In another post you write: ::The small set I have will cut out and turn sideways at winds over a ::certain speed.  It’s not designed for high speed winds but rather ::moderate speed ones.  I think it starts generating at 7 MPH.  Haven’t ::read the instruction book for several years though. At the risk of pissing you off, this proves you know next to nothing about wind power.   Claims of machines that produce usable power under 10mph are almost always part of a overall campaign of deceptive advertising. In fact the web site you referenced is a classic example of the typical alternate energy dream peddlers ad copy.  Look closely at the so-called performance curves.   Assume they are correct if you like (something I doubt!), and tell me if you can how much power this machine produces at 10MPH – never mind 7 – in turbulent air. Get out there and RUN the dang thing if you think it is such hot stuff. After you’ve had a few weeks or months of EXPERIENCE, feel free to stand and signify.   In the meantime I suggest you don’t make great leaps of faith on the basis of ad copy and testimonials.   Will Sill BTDT

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words: If you are in an area where the wind is reliable, a wind generator is an option.  Not too bulky and doesn’t care if the sun shines or not.  I have one I bought in ‘99 and have yet to use.  Think it is supposed to produce 400 watts max with a 28 MPH wind.  People I’ve talked to that used them said they were happy with them.

Surely you just.  Wind-powerd generators for rv’s? I gotta tell ya that they are as useless as Oz (we usta say teats on a boar hawg) UNLESS all of the following apply: – you have a tall enuf tower to evade ground effect turbulence – you have the power needs of a pioneer family – the area is as perpetually windy as the Altamont (CA) pass – you & neighbors don’t mind the racket – you have the price of a good genset to spend My credentials:  No degree, no license, no certificate on the wall. Just 10 years of hands-on experience including erecting a 95′ tower and running a pair of machines off & on during that period. Think I dunno what I’m talking about? Visit the DOE small wind machine test site at Rocky Flats in CO and find out for yourself.   Will Sill

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Think I dunno what I’m talking about? Visit the DOE small wind machine test site at Rocky Flats in CO and find out for yourself.  

As a former windmill engineer with experience with machines as small as 400 watts to 400 KW, I have to agree with Will although perhaps with not so much absolutism.   Regarding Rocky Flats, that is probably the worst test sites they could have picked to test small wind machines.  It has a good average wind speed, but the problem with that is that the wind is quiet for days and then they get these 100 MPH winds tearing down out of the mountains that destroys everything in its path. I generally don’t recommend wind machines because of the noise and the problems people have being their own utility.  That said though, the small units mounted on sailboats seem to work pretty well.  A unit big enough to be useful can be a pretty dangerous beast if you aren’t careful to take it down during storm winds.  I had one friend who had his trailer skewered with a broken blade that came right down into his bedroom.  The blades can sail a long way when they get loose.  Then you have to deal with a machine with a very out of balance rotor. That will usually result in the tower coming down. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but I think the right place for windmills is on a windfarm where regular maintenance by professionals can result in high reliability power.  The last job I had was in the Altamont Pass in California working with thousands of machines. Earle Rich Mont Vernon, NH

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – words: If you are in an area where the wind is reliable, a wind generator is an option.  Not too bulky and doesn’t care if the sun shines or not.  I have one I bought in ‘99 and have yet to use.  Think it is supposed to produce 400 watts max with a 28 MPH wind.  People I’ve talked to that used them said they were happy with them. Surely you just.  Wind-powerd generators for rv’s? I gotta tell ya that they are as useless as Oz (we usta say teats on a boar hawg) UNLESS all of the following apply: – you have a tall enuf tower to evade ground effect turbulence – you have the power needs of a pioneer family – the area is as perpetually windy as the Altamont (CA) pass – you & neighbors don’t mind the racket – you have the price of a good genset to spend My credentials:  No degree, no license, no certificate on the wall. Just 10 years of hands-on experience including erecting a 95′ tower and running a pair of machines off & on during that period. Think I dunno what I’m talking about? Visit the DOE small wind machine test site at Rocky Flats in CO and find out for yourself. Will Sill

From what I’ve read about wind generators, Will, I’m not sure they’re as useful as you indicate. CharlieG

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – words: If you are in an area where the wind is reliable, a wind generator is an option.  Not too bulky and doesn’t care if the sun shines or not.  I have one I bought in ‘99 and have yet to use.  Think it is supposed to produce 400 watts max with a 28 MPH wind.  People I’ve talked to that used them said they were happy with them. Surely you just.  Wind-powerd generators for rv’s? I gotta tell ya that they are as useless as Oz (we usta say teats on a boar hawg) UNLESS all of the following apply: – you have a tall enuf tower to evade ground effect turbulence

Those I have seen in use are usually only 12-15 ft up. – you have the power needs of a pioneer family

Think of it as an assist to solar panels. – the area is as perpetually windy as the Altamont (CA) pass

Lots of places along the Colorado River have at least 10-15 knots daily in winter season. – you & neighbors don’t mind the racket

All I noticed was a ticking sound. – you have the price of a good genset to spend

I only paid about $450 for mine.  You sure you know what you are talking about? My credentials:  No degree, no license, no certificate on the wall. Just 10 years of hands-on experience including erecting a 95′ tower and running a pair of machines off & on during that period.

Apparently they weren’t that well designed.  Try modern technology with graphite blades and more efficient electronics. Think I dunno what I’m talking about? Visit the DOE small wind machine test site at Rocky Flats in CO and find out for yourself.

Why not visit dry camping spots along the Colorado river and talk to people who have them in operation?  I don’t think they are part of their lawn ornament arrangement. LZ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Will Sill

Response:

Think I dunno what I’m talking about? Visit the DOE small wind machine test site at Rocky Flats in CO and find out for yourself. As a former windmill engineer with experience with machines as small as 400 watts to 400 KW, I have to agree with Will although perhaps with not so much absolutism. Regarding Rocky Flats, that is probably the worst test sites they could have picked to test small wind machines.  It has a good average wind speed, but the problem with that is that the wind is quiet for days and then they get these 100 MPH winds tearing down out of the mountains that destroys everything in its path.

The small set I have will cut out and turn sideways at winds over a certain speed.  It’s not designed for high speed winds but rather moderate speed ones.  I think it starts generating at 7 MPH.  Haven’t read the instruction book for several years though. I generally don’t recommend wind machines because of the noise and the problems people have being their own utility.  That said though, the small units mounted on sailboats seem to work pretty well.  A unit big enough to be useful can be a pretty dangerous beast if you aren’t careful to take it down during storm winds.  I had one friend who had his trailer skewered with a broken blade that came right down into his bedroom.  The blades can sail a long way when they get loose.  Then you have to deal with a machine with a very out of balance rotor. That will usually result in the tower coming down.

The blades on mine are very narrow, made of graphite and look like knife blades.  At the tip they are maybe 1" wide, at the base maybe 2". Sorry to be so pessimistic, but I think the right place for windmills is on a windfarm where regular maintenance by professionals can result in high reliability power.  The last job I had was in the Altamont Pass in California working with thousands of machines.

These little ones are supposed to be nearly maintenance free.  What maintenance would be perform?  I’ve seen the huge wind generators near Mojave in California and Minnesota has a lot of them along Buffalo Ridge but those monsters have very little in common with these small ones. These are designed to be portable and used with RVs. LZ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Earle Rich Mont Vernon, NH

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How many nominal watts of solar panel (or square feet) are needed to get 1kw-hr/day If they are pointed straight up? The vehicle will be south of 30 degrees latitude. My estimates indicate a pretty big array is needed. Like winter at 30 degrees N latitude will only yield about 200-250 watt-hr/sq meter-day. Summer would give about 600 watt-hr/sq meter-day on a sunny day. Four or five square meters of solar cells is a lot of cells! I’ll have to pretty much cover my roof.

Response:

Hello Dave & all; I can answer this, but I’m going to need a bit more info. The typically accepted value for solar insolation (the amount of solar energy falling upon) any given square meter of dirt on this ball of rock is about 1kw.  This number is for a pretty near "perfect" day, and will fall off rapidly for increases in latitude, and atmospheric attenuators–rain & fog for instance (the actual insolation value is a bit over a kw/m^2). Now you multiply that value by the efficiency of your cells.  The best cells available today can yield more than 30%.  Most of the cells in general use yield in the neighborhood of 20-25%.  Keep in mind that round cells, by virtue of their inability to be "packed", will lose another 30% or so per unit of area.  So your 200-250 w/m^2 are pretty close for a good array, squared cells, clean face, and in good condition. That’s the value you’ll get by pointing directly at the sun.  As the sun moves, and the oblique angle of the rays through the atmosphere increase, or the array isn’t driven to be perpendicular to the sun; output will fall off (dramatically).  On the typical winter day in the medium latitudes (weather permitting, of course), you can expect 6 hours of output, with the peak around noon or so… You wrote "… to get 1kw-hr/day …".  Is that 1kwh of power over the course of the day?  Or 1kwh/hr over the course of that same day?  If the former, then a 1 m^2 array will be pretty close.  If the latter, then you’re gonna need to add 23 times as many cells (and the controllers and batteries to deal with them as well). Hope this helped and I was clear enough… Best regards all, Dusty Bleher San Jose, Ca.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many nominal watts of solar panel (or square feet) are needed to get 1kw-hr/day If they are pointed straight up? The vehicle will be south of 30 degrees latitude. My estimates indicate a pretty big array is needed. Like winter at 30 degrees N latitude will only yield about 200-250 watt-hr/sq meter-day. Summer would give about 600 watt-hr/sq meter-day on a sunny day. Four or five square meters of solar cells is a lot of cells! I’ll have to pretty much cover my roof.

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Is that 1kwh of power over the course of the day?  Or 1kwh/hr over the course of that same day? ….

Dusty, Thanks for your response. I meant 1kwh/day total. Using data on insolation for a horizontal collector found at: http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/redbook/atlas/ and figuring that a "100W" panel gives 100Watts at noon (1kw/sq meter) when pointed straight at the sun, it turns out that for Florida or the Southwest in January about four panels are needed. Three if you can point them at the sun. The data at the nrel website is averages so power storage will be needed to average 1kw-hr/day. I think I’ll insulate my fridge better & maybe keep a lot of ice in it to help make it thru cloudy days. It is my main energy cost.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is that 1kwh of power over the course of the day?  Or 1kwh/hr over the course of that same day? …. Dusty, Thanks for your response. I meant 1kwh/day total. Using data on insolation for a horizontal collector found at: http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/redbook/atlas/ and figuring that a "100W" panel gives 100Watts at noon (1kw/sq meter) when pointed straight at the sun, it turns out that for Florida or the Southwest in January about four panels are needed. Three if you can point them at the sun. The data at the nrel website is averages so power storage will be needed to average 1kw-hr/day. I think I’ll insulate my fridge better & maybe keep a lot of ice in it to help make it thru cloudy days. It is my main energy cost.

If you are in an area where the wind is reliable, a wind generator is an option.  Not too bulky and doesn’t care if the sun shines or not.  I have one I bought in ‘99 and have yet to use.  Think it is supposed to produce 400 watts max with a 28 MPH wind.  People I’ve talked to that used them said they were happy with them. LZ

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