Steeping specialty grains

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Question:

Daren and Garry: I ran across the following document a few years ago with some very detailed instructions for converting all grain recipes to extract and partial mash. http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/extract/pres.pdf In this article (presented at the AHA National Homebrewers Conference in 1998) the author, Ken Schwartz, presents several lists of specialty grains and states which need to be mashed, which don’t, and also those that contain sufficient enzymes to convert themselves. I have used this as a guide when brewing extract and partial mash recipes, and also as an aide in my early all grain recipes. Based on the lists in the referenced document, the grains Garry talked about using either don’t require mashing (Crystal, Chocolate, and Black Patent), or contain sufficient enzymes to convert themselves (Munich and Vienna). By steeping for an hour at 150 with one quart of water per pound, Garry did a partial mash. Any grains that do not require mashing may be steeped. Those that require mashing may be done in a partial mash with enough base grains added to supply the enzymes needed for mashing. Happy Brewing! — Mark Recktenwald Stow, Ohio

Response:

Well I think that the definition also includes starch conversion. As I stated earlier, many folks that steep grains do so in the entire volume of water that they will boil – which is often 3 gallons or more. With that volume of water your enzymes will be very thin and won’t convert very well if at all before they become denatured.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steeping cracked Munich or Vienna at 150 F for an hour is almost the same thing as mashing them. No, it IS the same thing . I’m not completely convinced. What makes you state that so strongly? Because steeping at scacrification temperatures (and 150F certainly is that) for a lengthy period it time is the definition of mashing, I think. In any case, that’s how I mash. Well I think that the definition also includes starch conversion. As I stated earlier, many folks that steep grains do so in the entire volume of water that they will boil – which is often 3 gallons or more. With that volume of water your enzymes will be very thin and won’t convert very well if at all before they become denatured.

That is my thinking…. Thin mashes are generally in the greater than 2.5 qts/lb range. In most steeping situation, you are looking at 4 or more qts/lb depending upon the recipe and the brewer. Cheers, Mike

Response:

I’ll buy that. Having never "steeped" before, I didn’t consider the thinness of the solution. Tony V. LS6-b "6N"

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steeping cracked Munich or Vienna at 150 F for an hour is almost the same thing as mashing them. No, it IS the same thing . I’m not completely convinced. What makes you state that so strongly? Because steeping at scacrification temperatures (and 150F certainly is that) for a lengthy period it time is the definition of mashing, I think. In any case, that’s how I mash.

As other’s have mentioned, it depends on what volume of water and amount of grain you are steeping with. I’m not sure if you’ll really get much conversion by steeping 1/4 lbs. of grain in 5 gallons of water at 150F, for example. Mashing could be defined more specifically as steeping in a thick water/grain ratio at Sacc. temperatures until conversion is (relatively) complete. John. — *** John P. Kolesar *** *** Head Administrator, Monty Python’s Flying Talker ***

Response:

Steeping cracked Munich or Vienna at 150 F for an hour is almost the same thing as mashing them. No, it IS the same thing .

I’m not completely convinced. What makes you state that so strongly? Cheers, Mike

Response:

Steeping cracked Munich or Vienna at 150 F for an hour is almost the same thing as mashing them. No, it IS the same thing . I’m not completely convinced. What makes you state that so strongly?

Because steeping at scacrification temperatures (and 150F certainly is that) for a lengthy period it time is the definition of mashing, I think. In any case, that’s how I mash. Tony V. LS6-b "6N"

Response:

Steeping cracked Munich or Vienna at 150 F for an hour is almost the same thing as mashing them.

No, it IS the same thing . Tony V. LS6-b "6N"

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here are some grains I’ve just started using. Should I be steeping or mashing? My most recent batch (Baltic Porter) used all the below except for the black patent. I did a long steep (almost an hour at 150) in not too much water (approx. quart per pound). Seems to have turned out OK so far (currently in a long secondary). Crystal Chocolate Black Patent Munich Vienna Steeping cracked Munich or Vienna at 150 F for an hour is almost the same thing as mashing them. They have enough diastatic power to convert their own starches.

That’s true if the mash is thick enough. But many brewers use their entire boil volume of 2-3+ gallons to steep 1lb of grain. This would thin out the enzymes too much for a good conversion.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve noticed that when AG brewers mash their grains the amount of water per lbs. of grains is critical to efficiency (I think I have that right?). When I steep specialty grains I’ve always put about two gallons of water in a pot, added one to two lbs. of grains in a steeping bag, and held it at 155^F for 30 minutes. Would I make better use of the grains if I used "X" amount of water per lb. of grain? If so how much water per lb. of grain would be best to use? I would say that your current technique is good, and you should go with it. The reason AG brewers use specific amounts of water is to control the enzyme activity in the mash. Specialty grains usually have no active enzymes, so this is not an issue.

I don’t brew extract but I would think that you should not use too much water when steeping in order to control the pH. If you dilute with too much water and the water is not soft, you may end up with a high pH that could extract tannins during steeping. Less water might keep the pH in the safe range.

Response:

Here are some grains I’ve just started using. Should I be steeping or mashing? My most recent batch (Baltic Porter) used all the below except for the black patent. I did a long steep (almost an hour at 150) in not too much water (approx. quart per pound). Seems to have turned out OK so far (currently in a long secondary). Crystal Chocolate Black Patent Munich Vienna

Steeping cracked Munich or Vienna at 150 F for an hour is almost the same thing as mashing them. They have enough diastatic power to convert their own starches. ben

Response:

Garry, the Munich and Vienna need to mashed, the others do not. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here are some grains I’ve just started using. Should I be steeping or mashing? My most recent batch (Baltic Porter) used all the below except for the black patent. I did a long steep (almost an hour at 150) in not too much water (approx. quart per pound). Seems to have turned out OK so far (currently in a long secondary). Crystal Chocolate Black Patent Munich Vienna Garry

Response:

There was an interesting conversation on Cara-pils recently that provided a variety of opinions on the grain.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=p… 943%24N8.7319805%40bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3De n %26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26q%3D%2522the%2Bmysterious%2Bcarapils%2 5 22%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch I know. I started it. :-)

Don’t forget, I was there…. Cheers, Mike

Response:

Yes. And your comments on the 20% utilization was consistent throughout. Makes sense to me.

There was an interesting conversation on Cara-pils recently that provided a variety of opinions on the grain.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=p… 943%24N8.7319805%40bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3De n %26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26q%3D%2522the%2Bmysterious%2Bcarapils%2 5 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 22%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch I know. I started it. :-) Don’t forget, I was there…. Cheers, Mike

Response:

There was an interesting conversation on Cara-pils recently that provided a variety of opinions on the grain. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=p… 943%24N8.7319805%40bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3De n %26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26q%3D%2522the%2Bmysterious%2Bcarapils%2 5 22%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch I know. I started it. :-)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s try the reverse of your suggestion. You mention that some grains should be mashed and others can be steeped. is there a ‘rule of thumb’ to follow for knowing which way to go? It depends upon the malt, and to some extent the maltster… I tend to use Crystals, cara vienne and carapils but have also gone for the deeper roasts in my brown beer recipes like the chocolates and some of the other smoked grains. I prefer to be an extract ale brewer for the simplicity of it all (read: not much $$ for AG) but still strive to ‘be all I can be’. Your tips are appreciated. Ok, here is the skinny on just one you mentioned…CaraPils. If it comes from Cargill, it must be mashed, otherwise you are wasting your time steeping it in an extract recipe. You will at most get 20% extraction, and it really adds no color. Cheers, Mike

Response:

If you can be more specific about what types of grains you are talking about, we can give you a better answer as to whether you need to steep them or mash them.

Response:

Let’s try the reverse of your suggestion. You mention that some grains should be mashed and others can be steeped. is there a ‘rule of thumb’ to follow for knowing which way to go?

It depends upon the malt, and to some extent the maltster… I tend to use Crystals, cara vienne and carapils but have also gone for the deeper roasts in my brown beer recipes like the chocolates and some of the other smoked grains. I prefer to be an extract ale brewer for the simplicity of it all (read: not much $$ for AG) but still strive to ‘be all I can be’. Your tips are appreciated.

Ok, here is the skinny on just one you mentioned…CaraPils. If it comes from Cargill, it must be mashed, otherwise you are wasting your time steeping it in an extract recipe. You will at most get 20% extraction, and it really adds no color. Cheers, Mike

Response:

John You were assisting on the question of steeping grains and what volume of water should be used… I’ve noticed that when AG brewers mash their grains the amount of water per lbs. of grains is critical to efficiency (I think I have that right?). When If you can be more specific about what types of grains you are talking about, we can give you a better answer as to whether you need to steep them or mash them. John.

Let’s try the reverse of your suggestion. You mention that some grains should be mashed and others can be steeped. is there a ‘rule of thumb’ to follow for knowing which way to go? I tend to use Crystals, cara vienne and carapils but have also gone for the deeper roasts in my brown beer recipes like the chocolates and some of the other smoked grains. I prefer to be an extract ale brewer for the simplicity of it all (read: not much $$ for AG) but still strive to ‘be all I can be’. Your tips are appreciated. Daren Perrero

Response:

I’ve noticed that when AG brewers mash their grains the amount of water per lbs. of grains is critical to efficiency (I think I have that right?). When I steep specialty grains I’ve always put about two gallons of water in a pot, added one to two lbs. of grains in a steeping bag, and held it at 155^F for 30 minutes. Would I make better use of the grains if I used "X" amount of water per lb. of grain? If so how much water per lb. of grain would be best to use?

Normal AG mashing is about 1-2 quarts per pound… but since you’re just steeping speciality grains… I dont think it matters that much.

Response:

Thanks for the help, I didn’t think it would matter – never seen anything on it before, but it tweaked my curiosity when I began looking at AG brewing. Buck

Response:

I’ve noticed that when AG brewers mash their grains the amount of water per lbs. of grains is critical to efficiency (I think I have that right?). When

It’s not critical that you hit an exact ratio, there is some leeway involved. I steep specialty grains I’ve always put about two gallons of water in a pot, added one to two lbs. of grains in a steeping bag, and held it at 155^F for 30 minutes. Would I make better use of the grains if I used "X" amount of water per lb. of grain? If so how much water per lb. of grain would be best to use?

Steeping and mashing are two *very* different things. If you are steeping grains then it doesn’t make much difference how much water (within reason) you use, and the temperatures you hit are not as critical. Some grains already have had their starches converted to sugar during the processing stage, so all you really need to do is soak them in water to leech the sugars out. This is steeping. Other grains are mostly starches and enzymes, which require an activation period so that the enzymes can turn the starches into sugars. This is mashing. The amount of water you use during a mash determines how well the enzymes (which typically are floating free in the liquid) can come into contact with the starches in the grain and do their job. Too much water and the enzymes are floating around without touching much grain. Too little water and they have a hard time soaking into the grains. If you’re steeping, then all this is irrelevant as the grains contain mostly sugar to start with. If you can be more specific about what types of grains you are talking about, we can give you a better answer as to whether you need to steep them or mash them. John. — *** John P. Kolesar *** *** Head Administrator, Monty Python’s Flying Talker ***

Response:

I would say that your current technique is good, and you should go with it. The reason AG brewers use specific amounts of water is to control the enzyme activity in the mash. Specialty grains usually have no active enzymes, so this is not an issue. You might be able to get slightly more extraction by steeping in more water, but that effect might not be noticeable. I’ve generally varied the time of steeping, and the amount of agitation I give the grains. I once tried to get all of the roasted-barley flavor out of the grain bag in an extract stout, by steeping for 30-45 minutes at 160-170 F, and constantly agitating the bag for that time. I got soooo much of the flavor that time, that it took nearly three months to mellow out. The next batch, I didn’t agitate, and didn’t let it steep for as long. It took nearly as long for the hop flavor to mellow so I could taste the roasted barley…. — Chris Mikkelson | Another couple of days in this place, and I’d start | top of a mountain contemplating a tangerine for the | rest of my life. — Tony Bourdain

Response:

That should be about 4 1/2 lbs of DME in 5 gallons water. What does a gallon of DME weigh?

I don’t have a gallon of DME on hand; anyone who does want to weigh it? I -do- have LME on hand; I haven’t weighed it, but I figure it’s well over 8 lbs/gallon; probably close to honey, which is about 12 lbs/gallon. The way I’m thinking, I’m going to make 5 gallons with the equivalent of 10 lbs of extract. 2 lbs/gallon = .25 lbs/pint. If LME is 12 lbs/gallon, .25 lbs = 1/3 cup/pint.

Response:

What if the starter has a _higher_ OG than the wort? The manager at my local brew shop said a higher OG starter would mean a longer time at high karousen (sp?) which would mean a better chance of pitching active yeast to the wort.

Response:

says… Your starter should the same, or extremely close, to the OG of your batch. When you put together a starter, the yeast will be accustomed to the sugar/water ratio (gravity). If its a low OG starter but a high OG beer, the yeast will be too weak and will take longer to ferment.

I disagree. Yeast from high gravity fermentations tend to be weaker than those from moderate gravities. The goal in making a starter is to increase the cell count and produce the healthiest cells possible. While there is some debate about what the optimum gravity is, I think most folks would agree that you won’t go wrong if you keep your starters at ~ 1.040.

Response:

When you put together a starter, the yeast will be accustomed to the sugar/water ratio (gravity). If its a low OG starter but a high OG beer, the yeast will be too weak and will take longer to ferment. What if the starter has a _higher_ OG than the wort? The manager at my local brew shop said a higher OG starter would mean a longer time at high karousen (sp?) which would mean a better chance of pitching active yeast to the wort.

If I had to choose, I would choose having "stronger" yeast (high OG starter) than a "weaker" yeast (lower OG starter). But I’ve been told that yeast can be very picky and its best to have the OG’s the same so they yeast will already be accustomed to the mix.

Response:

A 4 – 1 ratio of water to extract giving an OG of 1.040????? That’s like using a gallon of extract to make a 4 – 5 gallon batch. That’s a lot of malt! Could someone -please- explain why such a ratio would result in an OG appropriate for a yeast starter?

1/2 cup to a pint is what I use too. But that’s about the only time I use volume for anything but water. Everything else I weigh. That should be about 4 1/2 lbs of DME in 5 gallons water. What does a gallon of DME weigh? — my address is spam blocked delete .no.spam to reply

Response:

Your starter should the same, or extremely close, to the OG of your batch. When you put together a starter, the yeast will be accustomed to the sugar/water ratio (gravity). If its a low OG starter but a high OG beer, the yeast will be too weak and will take longer to ferment. If you do all grain brewing, just put a little of it (1/2 gal or so) aside to use as a starter. Of course, it you’re really wanna go all out, put a lil more aside to prime your beer when you bottle it.

Response:

One pound of Liquid Extract gives 36 points per gallon. Dry Extract gives 44. If you’re looking for a 1.040 starter (which is a good average number), you’ll need 40/36 x 16/128 = 0.14 lb or 63g of LME. for DME it’s 40/44 x 16/128 = .11 lb or 52g DME. I don’t know the cup weights but I’m sure all three have put you in the ballpark and will work. If it comes out 1.030 or 1.050 isn’t that big of a deal. Burp, -Dan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi folks, I’ve brewed around a dozen batches, but never made a yeast starter before. I’ve looked for advice regarding the starter solution. I’ve received consistant advice from three different sources which doesn’t make sense to me. I’m hoping someone here can enlighten me. John Palmer’s "How to Brew" describes making a yeast starter solution with an OG of 1.040 with a half cup DME and 2 cups water. The manager at a FLBS recommended a cup of LME and 2 cups water, as I will be making a big beer (9.5 lbs LME and 1.5 lbs grain for 5 gallons). If that isn’t enough, the friggen wyeast packet says 1/3 – 1/2 cup to 2 cups water gives an OG of 1.020 – 1.040. I should be convinced. I am WAY confused! A 4 – 1 ratio of water to extract giving an OG of 1.040????? That’s like using a gallon of extract to make a 4 – 5 gallon batch. That’s a lot of malt! Could someone -please- explain why such a ratio would result in an OG appropriate for a yeast starter?

Response:

Hi folks, I’ve brewed around a dozen batches, but never made a yeast starter before. I’ve looked for advice regarding the starter solution. I’ve received consistant advice from three different sources which doesn’t make sense to me. I’m hoping someone here can enlighten me. John Palmer’s "How to Brew" describes making a yeast starter solution with an OG of 1.040 with a half cup DME and 2 cups water. The manager at a FLBS recommended a cup of LME and 2 cups water, as I will be making a big beer (9.5 lbs LME and 1.5 lbs grain for 5 gallons). If that isn’t enough, the friggen wyeast packet says 1/3 – 1/2 cup to 2 cups water gives an OG of 1.020 – 1.040. I should be convinced. I am WAY confused! A 4 – 1 ratio of water to extract giving an OG of 1.040????? That’s like using a gallon of extract to make a 4 – 5 gallon batch. That’s a lot of malt! Could someone -please- explain why such a ratio would result in an OG appropriate for a yeast starter?

Response:

The recipe calls for a pound of Munich and .25lb of Crystal (quite tasty to munch on if might say so). Is this the usual deal of steeping at 155 degrees for half an hour?

Steeping them at 155F for 30 minutes will work fine. Actually you’ll be mashing the Munich at that temperature (converting starch to sugar). Crystal is already mashed, so you’ll just be extracting its sugars. Don’t use too much water, one quart per pound of grain is typical. Assume you’ll be using a kitchen strainer. Have an additional quart of water at 155 or so (under 170F is actually the real limit) to rinse the strained grains and get additional sugars. The run off should be clear. Add to your extract boil. — Bob Scott Posted with Mozilla running on Linux. Certified MS virus free!

Response:

Hi Trint, When you steep Munich malt, you aren’t. You are mashing it in order for the starches in the malt to be converted by the enzymes in the malt, into fermentable sugars. (The crystal is already converted during production) So, to mash Munich malt and to best achieve the starch conversion, you can’t be as loose with the conditions as you typically are when steeping. You want to have the water to grain ratio between 1-2 quarts per pound, otherwise pH and dilution of the enzymes will discourage conversion. So, if you want to proceed with this steep, I suggest you put the crushed grain in a grain bag and dunk it in a sauce pan on the stove with about 2 quarts of water in it. Steep it at 155F for a half hour and then drain and squeeze it. Pour that wort into your brew pot and heat up another quart of water and dunk the bag in again, let it set a couple minutes and squeeze and add that wort to your brewpot. This is, in essence, batch sparging of this small amount of malt from a mini mash. Have Fun, Good Brewing, — John Palmer How To Brew – the online book http://www.howtobrew.com (free, all rights reserved) Homepage: http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello folks, I’ll be doing a Kolsch (is this pronounced like it is written?) tomorrow as only my 2nd batch ever. I’ve done specialty grains in my first batch and everything went smoothly, but this time I’ll be following a recipe as opposed to using a kit, so I want to make sure I’m doing everything perfect. The recipe calls for a pound of Munich and .25lb of Crystal (quite tasty to munch on if might say so). Is this the usual deal of steeping at 155 degrees for half an hour? Are there any other preparations I should be making? If anybody wants to know this is a recipe from my "Homebrewing for Dummies" book, which is actually an excellent resource. It says that it won 2nd place in the AHA nationals, though it doesn’t state which year, so I’m eager to get things going. Thanks, –Trint Homewood College Student, Future Rock and Roll Star and all around nice guy

Response:

Hello folks, I’ll be doing a Kolsch (is this pronounced like it is written?) tomorrow as only my 2nd batch ever. I’ve done specialty grains in my first batch and everything went smoothly, but this time I’ll be following a recipe as opposed to using a kit, so I want to make sure I’m doing everything perfect. The recipe calls for a pound of Munich and .25lb of Crystal (quite tasty to munch on if might say so). Is this the usual deal of steeping at 155 degrees for half an hour? Are there any other preparations I should be making? If anybody wants to know this is a recipe from my "Homebrewing for Dummies" book, which is actually an excellent resource. It says that it won 2nd place in the AHA nationals, though it doesn’t state which year, so I’m eager to get things going. Thanks, –Trint Homewood College Student, Future Rock and Roll Star and all around nice guy

Response:

Munich needs to be mashed. It has enough power to convert itself and the crystal is already converted. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello folks, I’ll be doing a Kolsch (is this pronounced like it is written?) tomorrow as only my 2nd batch ever. I’ve done specialty grains in my first batch and everything went smoothly, but this time I’ll be following a recipe as opposed to using a kit, so I want to make sure I’m doing everything perfect. The recipe calls for a pound of Munich and .25lb of Crystal (quite tasty to munch on if might say so). Is this the usual deal of steeping at 155 degrees for half an hour? Are there any other preparations I should be making? If anybody wants to know this is a recipe from my "Homebrewing for Dummies" book, which is actually an excellent resource. It says that it won 2nd place in the AHA nationals, though it doesn’t state which year, so I’m eager to get things going. Thanks, –Trint Homewood College Student, Future Rock and Roll Star and all around nice guy

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